Foundations of Second Language Education

How is everyone doing on the readings? Any comments? Anyone want to start the discussion going?
Robyn

Hi Everyone!

I just finished reading L&B chapter 7. I thought it was very interesting. #10 and #11 were particulary interesting because they were good reminders that you don't have to teach language "in order." I think it's easy to get stuck on the idea that you teach one thing before the other when it comes to language, but it isn't necessarily the only way or the best way to teach.

It's important to allow learners to be exposed to all sorts of language and they will pick it up as they are ready developmentally. It is probably most important to allow them to be exposed to native speakers on a regular basis.

Any comments? What did you find interesting?

I also looked at the Wilson Electronic Reserve for the Collier and Thomas article, but it said there were no documents available for our class. Was anyone else able to find that article???

Kristen

I just want to post the site address for the Collier and Thomas assigned reading for October 1. It's not yet on the Wilson Reserve site for this class. http://njrp.tamu.edu/2004/PDFs/Collier.pdf

Hi Everyone,

I posted a comment earlier today, but it hasn't shown up for some reason. I'm using this as a test message. If it goes through, I'll post my original message again!
Kristen

I think the reflection on Idea #6 is interesting. "Most of the mistakes that second language learners make are due to interference from their first language"(Page 187). My own experience learning English plural nouns is an example. You need to put "s" behind nouns to make them plural. Single and plural nouns are the same in Chinese. I don't make this mistake when I am writing, but I always forget to put the "s" when I speak. Later, I found my son---a 14 year-old boy who moved to the U.S. one and half years ago making the same mistake. Also, I found many Chinese friends who have lived in the U.S. for many years still have this problem. But, another girl who moved from China when she was 8, after one and half years, she rarely makes this mistake.

Hi Everyone. Good morning!

Yes, Kristen. I think #10 and #11 are interesting also. Students would feel bored if they only heard a few words and a few sentences from the curriculum repeated over and over in the class and the teacher never changed from the curriculum sequence.

For example, on a recent warm day, the content of my Chinese class lesson plan had no connection with the weather. But I talked in Chinese about the hot weather, not being comfortable, and other things related to weather, anyway. The students were so interested. They were trying very hard to guess what I was saying as I used signalling to help them to understand. They were so pleased when they finally understood the meaning.

I have a couple of other questions/ideas. The first question is how much of the L2 we use in the classroom for the beginning stage learner? I am teaching 1st, 2nd and 3rd students in a FLES program. The students only meet two times for half an hour each week. If I use too much Chinese, it will take more time, and the students would get tired of trying to confirm the meaning all the time.

Another question is should the teacher explain in L1 immediately when students couldn't figure the second language meanings out? Or just let the students keep the question in their mind, and hope they will get the main ideas naturally later?

I welcome everyone to comment on any of these ideas. Hope you all are having a good Sunday. See you tomorrow!

Shen Fei

I think the connection you made between #6 and your own L2 learning experience is interesting. I wonder how we can use this knowledge to help our students learn? Especially in ESL where the teacher might not speak the student's native language and won't necessarily know if the errors are caused by interference from the L1?

Hi Everyone,
OK - I was up north this weekend without internet. I read what I though was the homework, chapters 5 and 6. (chapters 5 and 6 are listed under next week’s reading, but the date next to it is for this week. I decided to go with chapters 5 and 6 as we have been reading sequentially up to this point and jumping to chapter 7, then backtracking to chapters 5 and 6 seemed not quite right.) Oops, I just saw that you all read chapter 7.
I guess it was announced in class that we were to read chapter 7. Where was I during that announcement? I need to pay better attention. Ok- I am off to read chapter 7 now.

I also left a posting today and it has not shown up yet...

Well - I read chapters 5 and 6 because I followed the dates in the syllabus. I missed the class announcement that we were, in fact, to read chapter 7. Oops.

I read chapter 7 today. I really like how it addressed each language assumption one at a time. I was really surprised about number 12, where it said teachers should give explicit, form-focused instruction and feedback on error. I have read about and discussed in other classes other theories that say teachers should NOT give form focused error feedback. Krashen, if I understand correctly, says that with simply enough comprehensible input students will eventually self-correct errors, and that teachers should not be form focused, but rather meaning focused. Am I misunderstanding what our book is saying? It did go on to state the negative side of error correction, but it did not say to avoid error correction.

Those are good questions about how much of the L1/L2 to use in beginning classes. I'm thinking of ESL (my focus) and how much English the kids are exposed to from the very beginning. I guess in that case it's a matter of survival, but I wonder if that's helpful? Does it help them learn English faster? I don't know the answer to that. I suppose a middle ground would be ideal. Not too much L2 right away, but still some exposure?

I just read the Collier and Thomas article and found it quite interesting. Especially about NCLB and ELLs. They talked about how long it takes for ELLs to close the achievement gap in English and how, ideally, they would be tested on their content knowledge in their L1 in the meantime. They also talked about how this isn't feasible for most native languages, but would be for Spanish because so many tests already exist in Spanish. So I found myself wondering... Why don't they at least test Spanish speakers in their L1, at least while they close the English gap? If this is what the research shows and it's feasible, why don't they?

I also thought #12 was interesting. I have heard both theories of error correction and I think you have to find a balance and listen for the errors students are making most often and work on correcting those. It seems unrealistic and discouraging to the learner to correct every error. I have also read/heard that recasts are not very effective forms of error corrections because a lot of the time the student does not realize they made the error. They think you are just repeating what they said.

I agree that recasts can be ineffective, and a determent to student motivation. Although this chapter seemed to think that recasts, as well as other types of error correction have their place in the language classroom. It did cite some research that showed recasts as effective with many adult learners, whereas children do better with a more explicit type of error correction. Here again I was confused / surprised, because in other readings and classes we have heard that overt error correction is not necessarily needed in the language classroom, but rather just a steady supply of comprehensible input.
Regarding the L1 and L2 use in classrooms, I wonder if it may make a difference what level students are at? I know there is a lot of theory out there that all classrooms, from beginning on up, should be conducted in the L2. But I wonder about students asking questions. If they can not express a specific question they have in the L2 is it better to then ask it in L1 to ensure it addressed? I know that from teaching Spanish 3 students should almost never need to use L1, but I am not sure about starting levels.
I was struck by number 10, and the fact that most textbooks approach language like it is a collection of rules to be learned in order. We know this is not so, and yet most schools teach using a textbook as a guide. It seems like this needs to change to make language learning more effective.

I found #6 to be interesting. This was something that I already knew, but as I look at my students as they are responding to Chinese it makes this one very interesting. As my students are learning Chinese they do take a lot of what they know from their first language to help them out with the 37 different sounds in Chinese. At times, this interferes with how the sound should sound like in Chinese. For example, when they see the word "chi" they would pronounce it as if they were saying the first part of "cheese". When in reality the word should be pronounced with your tongue slightly curled at the end. It also mentions that if there were any similiarities between the frist and second language it will be hard for the learners to overcome these similarities. I think is is very true. The example that I just gave earlier was just one example of this. A lot of my second year Chinese students would pronounce a lot of words according to how it looks like in English and they would continue to do that even though they are in second year right now. They are still trying to get past how it will sound differently in Chinese.

Hi everyone,

This is a test. I realized that my post didn't show up.

Shen-
To answer your comment about how much L2 to use in the classroom when you are speaking to you students especially since you only get to see them twice a week. I would suggest you to continue to give them instructions in L2. It will be beneficial for them, but you need to incoorporate actions or other things when you are using the L2. What types of things are you doing in the classroom already?

You need to repeat it multiple times if you are tying to give them the immersed effect. You will also need to check for their comprehension. If they don't know what it means and you can tell when they get restless then you need to use their L1 to clarification. I hope this helps out a little. We can talk about it more in class if you have questions.

Kristen,

I found your comment to be very interesting. It also made me think of how I am teaching. I am trying to teach my students Chinese in a very sequential order, but like what you said it might not be the best approach to teaching them the language. They will get really restless as they are just repeating things over and over and hearing them over and over again. Like it said in the book, they should be exposed to native speakers so they hear the language being used in different forms. Some simple ones and others that are difficult. This will challenge the high acheivers in the classroom, but also allow the low acheivers to pick out what they know.

I also commented on #6, but my reflection on it was different than yours Shen. Mine was more on how my students have that interference with their L1 when they are learning L2. It's interesting to hear your expereience on how you would leave out the "s" in the plural nouns in English. I agree, in Chinese it is the same and you don't have to worry about it. I found it interesting that you mentioned that you won't make the mistake when you are writing in English, but you would when you are speaking it. Is it because you are able to proofread what you wrote so you won't make the mistake?