DuVernois Blog

That makes more sense than most theology I've heard. At least it rationally explains why good people suffer.

Maybe God is like Trelane in The Squire of Gothos. His parents went out for a loaf of bread and will be home soon. In the meantime, he's playing with us.

God does not let people die. People die.
God created a good world put man in charge and we screwed it all up.

God does not let people die. People die.
God created a good world put man in charge and we screwed it all up.

God does not let people die. People die.
God created a good world put man in charge and we screwed it all up.

It doesnt take a genius to figure out this isn't Heaven. If anyone demands a perfect Earth free from pain then they are just as ignorant as the people who wrote that script. If Earth was perfect people would have no incentive to want to be in Heaven with God who created them. If anything, good people who suffer should ask God to help them and he will, I've seen it hundreds of times and I wont be the last. If you haven't seen the same then maybe you should ask yourself who you are surrounded with, your friends you say? Do your friends live their lives according to their own selfish desires or are they willing to make small sacrifices (i.e. be it as large as staying faithful to their wives or as small as being kind to someone for no reason at all) that will keep them in close ties to God's word; The Bible. Take into account that the only real thing you need to do to accept God's GRACIOUS gift of compassion towards us is to accept that his Son died on the cross for us, then you have a deal that can't be beaten. Not even by a mind-decaying cartoon. If you choose to think God is a vengeful God you've missed the entire message of the Bible. I suggest you take a closer look at God's word before pinning God as someone who doesnt care. If he really just wanted to get back at us would he have sent his ONLY son, Jesus, to DIE on the cross? What has south park done for human kind besides introduce more violence, more hatred, and nothing but negativity to a nation already infested with a booming porn industry and a constant message of sex, sex, sex being spread via television. There are more important things in life. Take a look at the Bible and I think you may find them.

My name is Allen, I've accepted Christ as my one true Savior. I'm 18 and I plan on being a pharmacist when I grow up.

Allen,

a question for you : dont you find strange that god created an imperfect earth just to make ppl to want to go to heaven when he could have just created good ppl and a single heavenly place at the first time. It's just like he seems to have the resources to do it, so what went wrong ? and plz dont get started with the snake story because god could have prevented it if he wanted to.

another one : Do you literaly believe that the christ came back from the dead ?

How about:
1. a God who does not care about humans, does not interfere at all. Stop humanizing God, it's just a way of explaining the unexplainable, of soothing our anxieties, of making us feel somewhat better: I suffer now, Yes, but I am gonna go to Heaven;
2. Worse, God is an invention by the powerful to make us shut up: you suffer, yes, but just pray and be good and you'll go to Heaven...
3. Jesus not being the son of God, but just some amazing person like some others have existed in history, and who sets example for all of us. A guidance for our lives.

If it isn't a completely clear cut case that Christianity is false, and you aren't really losing anything by the minimalist Christian step of accepting Christ's salvation, you might as well do it. Then go ahead and argue against Christianity. At least in that way you have your bases covered.

On the other hand, if Christianity is clearly false, why bother dialoguing with Christians? Just pretend to be a Christian and use the religion for your own purposes, since they'd all be deluding themselves. That, in my opinion, would be a much better use of your time.

God Doesnt Exist

God doesn't exist.
The christian god dreamt up by ignorant people a long time ago is a very nasty piece of work. It requires constant praise and attention, is vengeful, irrational, egocentric. Why an omniscient being would be so insecure is beyond me. If it were a person it would end up in prison or a psych ward.
However, it doesn't exist.

I believe South Park has developed over the years into the most intelligent and biting social commentary of our time. Congrats to Trey and Matt. The method of delivery probably isn't appropriate for most under 13, and that is why its placement on late night Comedy Central is appropriate. But religious and family groups who condemn South Park take it out of context, and either fail to see, or refuse to see its satire.

I think Allen and Cyrus miss the point. Whether Trey and Matt believe in God is not demonstrated, and irrelevant in the quote. South Park is lampooning God, and the mythology of religion, for God having the ability to prevent human suffering (especially of "good" people), yet choosing not to do so. Yet His mythology claims God is loving, caring and compassionate. I find such critique hard to refute, and most religious explanations completely unsatisfying.

Matt and Trey are brave guys to shine such ascerbic satire on possibly the ultimate power in the universe. If God does exist, I hope He finds the humor in it, and doesn't judge Matt and Trey based on South Park. If God would judge someone based on their creative work that is not imposed on others, I don't know I would want anything to do with Him.

to fab:

God created all things, and in the beginning they were good. But He also gave some of His creatures a free will. Why? Because He loves so much that He doesn't appreciate robots.

He created an angel named Lucifer. Lucifer was very magnificent but became proud and rebelled against God and wanted to be like God. Then 1/3rd of all the angels joined Lucifer in his rebellion. They were all judged then cast to the earth.

Afterwards, in time God created man according to His own image and after His own likeness. And He wanted man, a creature, to have dominion over the earth, including God's adversary, Satan (once Lucifer). He wanted creature to deal with creature.

Man had a choice, but fell, and fell more and more. We were helpless and without hope. But in time, because of God's great love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, He sent His only begotten Son and was crucified on the cross. He died for our sins and our sin nature, and was raised (yes He was) for our justification. Now to those who believe into Him, receives Him, and thereby receives eternal life.

Yes, bad stuff still happens now. But today God is mysteriously heading up all things in Christ, starting first with those who allow Him to make home in their hearts. Eventually the God of peace will crush Satan under the feet of us who were once poor sinners and for eternity there will no pain, sickness, Satan, and then the last enemy, death will be abolished.

So you don't have to blame God for what's happening now. Just praise Him for what He is doing and will accomplish.

I wish God were alive to see this.

Read "The End of Fait" by Sam Harris.

You're nuts to think that there is an omnipresent being who cares about you. He's got nine trillion galaxies to worry about to bother with anyone here.

Do you know what is the penalty for breaking the first eight of the ten commandments (assuming that there is agreement about which ten they are, since the bible seems to have different lists)? The penalty is death. Great religion, this Christianity. Of course the Koran isn't any better about the penalty for unbelievers.

God is a cucumber.

Okay to Colin first:

I don't fail to see the satire and I don't refuse to see it either. However, satarizing God is taking biting the hand that feeds you to another level. They are blessed with many wonderful talents but instead of satirizing God they could glorify God. There are plenty of ways to be humorous without questioning God's motives. Just like you said there are people who will refuse to see the satirical side to this and they will accept this lampoonery of God's will as fact.

To Fab:

I do find it strange that God created anything at all, but then I'm not God. I don't expect to fully understand his motives but I do accept them faithfully. He created a wonderfully complex universe filled with many puzzle's of which the human is one. He blessed us with a free-will of our own, what we do with it is our choice. It's also our choice to accept what he has done for us with a gracious and thankful heart or to reject it with contempt claiming that it doesnt make sense. I do believe that Christ literally rose from the dead. I don't see what is so hard to believe about that. When you are the Son of God almighty, helping the blind see and coming back from the dead are small potatoes compared to creating the universe ;-).

To Ray:

The Ten Commandments, written in the Old Testament were part of God's old covenant (or agreement) with man. The people living during the Old Testament followed these Commandments because these are essentially God's laws, and a merciful bunch of laws they were compared to the thousands of laws our country alone has. Jesus was not yet born and therefore the people of the old testament did NOT have the luxury (for lack of a better word) to simply and graciously accept Jesus Christ as there savior. When Jesus was born God established a new convenant (or agreement) with man that can be located at John 3:16 :"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" We have it easy compared to them. This does NOT mean that its okay to disregard the Ten Commandments as part of God's old convenant. Jesus teachings reinforced God's initial Ten Commandments and clarified them for the people. I thank God for Jesus every day and I believe that I have reason to do so.

Please don't criticize me too much. I'm no Bible expert (in other words I can't explain every little detail of the Bible) nor am I the best example of a Christ follower but I do know who the BEST example is and his name is Jesus Christ. Feel free to contact me at by email at: SithVegeta@cox.net

God used to be a cucumber Lester.I had him with some Ranch dressing last night. uhm.

god is a human invention. when someone says they don't need to understand god's motifs, they just faithfully accept them, they're essentially saying they're ignorant and they're ok with it.

Why didn't we just keep on faithfully accept the sun revolves around the earth, like we did until someone was brave enough to say 'get a grip' ?

besides, this discussion seems centered around christianity, forgetting that each culture in different eras created they're own versions of god or gods. Each one knew they had it right, yet they're greatly inconsistent between them. The truth is nobody knows.

And if we keep faithfully believing that god created the universe, and for some reason has a preference for human beings on planet earth, then not only will we be ignorant for the rest of our lifes, we're also encouraging future generations to be ignorant as us.

dude, we don't know who/what/how the universe was created. if it makes you feel better to refer to this unkown as god, i think that's cool, but forget about the comandments and the satan and the angels bedtime stories. Those were created by humans. I can prove it. Just look at the handwritting.

"I wish God were alive to see this."

ahahhahahahahahah

All human religions bear these in common:

1) they promise eternal existence to the faithful;
2) they proscribe punishments to the unfaithful;
3) they are all "right", and anyone who disagrees is a non-believer - and therefore subject to punishment and damnation;
4) they judge everyone, and attempt to "convert" all non-believers to their faith.

This pattern has held true, for all religions, and throughout all history - and beyond. More wars have been waged in the name of religion than for any other cause, or causes combined.

Does anyone see the fatal flaw in this pattern? It is the aspect of "eternal existence". No matter WHAT one does, one is forever doomed to exist for all eternity - in either eternal salvation or eternal damnation - but always, _eternal_... with NO other choice in the matter whatsoever.

Did any one of us "choose" to be brought into existence in the first place? No - we are never given any opportunity to make _that_ choice; we are simply brought into existence, and there is no alternative.

Would any truly intelligent person WANT to be forced to exist for all eternity? Think about this - think very carefully. How long is "eternity", really?

How many countless trillions of entire universes will come and pass, before you have literally been and experienced *everything*? Hmm? How would you maintain your sanity, after even only the first million years? Would you still know who you are? Would you care? Would you not EVER grow weary, of the doom of your _eternal_ existence?

I don't care HOW gilded the cage of "salvation" is - it remains a cage nonetheless. And the same goes for "damnation", as well.

I don't want EITHER of those so-called "choices", for I don't _want_ "eternal existence" - in ANY form. Where is MY "choice", in any religion? Why can I _not_ choose to CEASE to exist - period? *Ever*??

Somewhere in the Old Testament, it is written that what God has created, God can also destroy. Why do you suppose modern religion never seems to mention this?

Perhaps simply because it may be the case that it would be more preferable to a considerable percentage of the populace than the "blessings" of eternity of which they always preach. Word would start to get around a bit, and perhaps begin to undermine their "credibility" - heaven forbid.

So now you begin to see: it's still the same old pattern of eternal human social dominance that's *really* the game being played - isn't it?

BULLSHIT!

It's a f*cking cartoon for God's sake. A cartoon that makes fun of everything.

This however, is all bullshit.

BULLSHIT!

It's a f*cking cartoon for God's sake. A cartoon that makes fun of everything.

This however, is all bullshit.

It's rather unsettling for you to have to really *think* about such things, isn't it?

Don't you ever wonder why?

You just have to investigate the bible a little bit to realize that it was clearly written by some clever first-century marketers trying to peddle their new-fangled cult. For example, check out Matthew's well-documented intential mistranslation of the Hebrew word "almah" in Isaiah 7:14 to invent the whole concept of the "virgin birth", which was necessary to make the Christ legend more appealing to the Greeks, who liked their heroes to have supernatural beginnings. Or look into the versus added much later to the end of Mark, all the versus that talk about Jesus appearing to Mary and the disciples don't appear in older versions of Mark and are acknowledged even in modern bible translations as having been added by scribes many years later. How people can still take this book to be anything more than a collection of odd fairy tales and stories after 2000 years is just a testimony to man's ignorance, or perhaps his gullibility.

To Ray:

Doesn't it strike you as odd that out of "nine trillion of galaxies", there's only been one exactly just like ours? With the sun exactly where it is, our planet exactly at such so right a distance from the Sun? And all the other planets in the solar system just exactly where they are?

Are we not fortunate or what? That you can be exactly here at this moment, living, breathing, eating, drinking? Here you are, being generally well provided for by the special arrangement that is just our solar system, in this thing called the planet Earth.

Isn't it odd that you know that you should love, and as far as is possible with you, live in peace with all men. That you can find joy in the so many things of life, that there are things that interests you? Isn't it odd that you know to honor righteousness, and that you should judge fairly? That you honor a person's right to make his/her own decisions? That you believe that every human being no matter of race/color/sex or creed is equal, and are endowed with certain inalienable rights?

And isn't it odd that here you are, even as staunch an atheist (or agnostic) as you are, you can be exactly here right now, having the capability to contemplate, and are contemplating, on the things of eternity?

God is living, and He is doing just fine.

In the begining...There was the Giant Floating Teddy Bear. And the Giant Floating Teddy Bear created a little tiny Toto dog and they became the best of companions.

As the first April Fools Day approached, the Giant Floating Teddy Bear wanted to celebrate the occasion with the little tiny Toto dog, and did bestow upon the little tiny Toto dog a terrible, terrible stink. In that instant all the matter in the hietherto non-existant universe immediately tried to get as far away from the stinky little tiny Toto dog as quickly as possible. And that is how the universe came to be.

Eventually humans arose on one of the planets and the Giant Floating Teddy Bear decided, in its infinite wisdom, and because it had so much love for the humans, that it would communicate with the humans through its very own stuffing.

The Giant Floating Teddy Bear has clearly and unequivocally communicated his will to the humans, but humans are particularly inept at deciphering the Giant Floating Teddy Bear's stuffing. Many even deny its existence. So, the Giant FLoating Teddy Bear sent the stinky little tiny Toto dog down to the Earth to live amongst the Humans, and to spread the stuffing of the Giant FLoating Teddy Bear. But still the humans refused to become riteous, in fact they became more wicked. The Giant Floating Teddy Bear was left with ...well, an infinite number of choices, but for some reason that only it knows it chose this one:

"I have decided that there shall be only one path to salvation for these hoodlums & hooligans: the stinky little tiny Toto dog must die! Yeah, thats it...its got to die a real horrible and morbid death! That is surely the only way the humans will understand that I am infinitely kind and my love for them is also infinite." said the Giant Floating Teddy Bear to itself.

And so it came to pass that the stinky little tiny Toto dog did die a horrible and morbid death. And for three days the stinky little Tiny Toto dog was straight pissed off about it! Finally it decided, "the Hell with this bullshit!" and it reneged on the death thing (it would later argue, unsuccessfully, that the agreement only specified that the stinky little tiny Toto dog had to die, but resurection was never specifically prohibited.)

And that is how we got where we are now.

It' s not important to believe in God. It's important not to believe in something that is not God. God exists in a way that we do not exist.

To Joaocosta

I beg to differ, God is not a Human invention; rather its the otherway around, Humans are God's invention. I'm glad that you mentioned early science discovery's like the earth revolving around the sun. Guess what the motivation for these discovery's were? To understand God's creation. Any documentary on Isaac Newton, Plato, and even Einstein can tell you that they did believe in God and often kept him in mind when making their respective discoveries.

"God does not play dice with the universe" - Einstein

Exactly right, God knows exactly what he is doing, people on the other hand are clearly the misguided ones. Surely the aforementioned people are among some of the last you can merely call ignorant. Newton didn't simply say get a grip it more along the lines, our understanding of God's creation is severely misrepresented. As a true believer in God's word I do accept that Christianity is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the Son of God, he really did exist. His birth was prophesied in the old testament and all of the old prophesies came true beginning with his birth. It's more than any other RELIGION can say. As far PHILOSOPHIES such as confucianism, buddhism, etc. go they can make no such claims. It doesnt just make me feel better to think the universe was created by God, it makes me feel better to KNOW that it was.

Haha, the most ignorant part of me right now is that I'm acting like I dont have to go to work in 40 minutes. I'll be back this afternoon.

Contact me at: sithvegeta@cox.net

People who claim to know the nature and intentions of God are dangerous to themselves and to others.

If God exists and wanted us to know his nature he would be capable of declaring his existence and nature contemporaneously without our having to rely on obviously flawed ancient texts.

A lot of people seem to use the following formula:

suffering in this world = God does not exist

Wherein which they might not accept this formula:

suffering in this world = accidental Big Bang

or;

suffering in this world = survival of the fittest?

For a lot of Christians however, this formula works:

suffering in this world

A lot of people seem to use the following formula:

suffering in this world = God does not exist

Wherein which they might not accept this formula:

suffering in this world = accidental Big Bang

or;

suffering in this world = survival of the fittest?

For a lot of Christians however, this formula works:

suffering in this world is less than a future Heaven = Hope

God put us here with the freedom to choose.
Suffering is not God's fault, It's mankinds, we can choose to help others. Or allow them to suffer.

Discoveries like the earth revolving around the sun were made at a time when not believing in god was reason enough to burn people in a fire. i think that severly undermines the importance of wether those people believed or didn't believe in god. For all I know, Einstein might have been a fervant believer in god. Does that prove god as you describe it exists ? I think Einstein himself would say no.

Galileo, who proposed that the sun didn't revolve around the earth, was condemned for the crime of heresy, and spent a large part of his life under house arrest, by the same christian church in which you choose to blindly believe. His crime was not blindly believing.

Now you can tell me that this are actions taken by people, that people are bad and god is good, and if you wanna believe that, I can only respect you. My point is, it's dangerous when you faithfully accept something without questioning. And that's what god is. No one can prove god exists and the bible is accurate, all you can say is, you must faithfully accept it.

Also, your thoughts on christianity being the only way to heaven raise interesting questions. I trust you don't believe jews, muslims, budhists are not going to heaven right ? Considering all other religions must account for at least 65% of humanity (sorry, I don't know the exact figure, it's probably more), how do they fit in this picture ?

And please don't tell me you're not a bible expert, I'm asking for your opinion, not from what you learned from the bible. I wanna know what you think, not what the priest you faithfully believe in told you.

"If you choose to think God is a vengeful God you've missed the entire message of the Bible."

But Allen. It SAYS SO. IN THE FREAKING BIBLE.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=41&chapter=1&verse=2&version=31

It is not even that important enough for me to question.

You people still don't get the point - you don't really know what you're dealing with, do you?

Here - read this, then:

http://www.vaniercollege.qc.ca/Auxiliary/Psychology/Frank/Thirdwave.html

It may help to give you a clue as to what religions are really all about.

That's a 5-star link

To Kobes:

Did you choose that one verse without mentioning anything else in the book of Nahum for a reason? Try reading the whole book of Nahum. Chapter one is essentially revealing to us what God's wrath is like when brought upon his enemies. The lord God takes vengeance on his adversaries, he RESERVES his wrath for his ENEMIES. Verse 3, he is slow to anger and great in power. The book of nahum is referring to the ancient town of Ninevah, a town void of decency and sinful to the utmost. God showed no mercy for those who spared none for others. He does the same for those of whom he condems to hell for leading a sinful life choosing not to accept the extremely gracious gift his son, Jesus Christ, has to offer us. I'm sorry you misunderstood the context and meaning of this verse.

And what about those who choose _neither_ heaven nor hell, eh? What "option" does God give, to those? Why does religion _not_ allow this?

I don't *want* "eternity" - in ANY form. Period.

Iam - this multiple choice test of life gives us two options. Heaven or Hell. Truly, I'm not exactly sure whether Hell is eternal suffering or complete obliteration and quite frankly it doesnt matter to me. I wont be going there. I don't fully understand how great heaven is, its impossible for a human mind to even comprehend such perfection. I do know that spending eternity in Heaven with my God my creator beats any other alternative and I'm truly... truly sorry that you do not feel the same way. Now you can simply blow off what I'm saying because I must be some religious nut or you can accept not what I say but what God has to say for what it is, the truth. No matter what I, you, or anyone else believes, there are no other options. I don't see this as harsh, it makes things much more simple and makes choosing a decision much easier.

Email me at sithvegeta@cox.net to discuss this further.

Alright joaocosta, I submitted a response to your long inquiry.. umm maybe I was a bit long-winded but it said my entry has been held something or another about approval by the blog owner. So would it be possible to just email it to you? thanks

So... the explanation for why shit happens to good people is that God is vengeful. But seriously, what's he got to be pissed about? He's omniscient. He knew this shit was going to happen. Can't go crying about it now.

He's like a kid who's thrown his toys out of the pram.

So maybe a lot of people have got it wrong, like Allen says. God is vengeful towards his enemies.

So... why is it, exactly, that he has enemies? I mean... he's pretty nice, right? Why -wouldn't- you like him? I mean, heaven. Why -wouldn't- you want it? Just to be contrary? Can you really think of a reason for turning down paradise, you know, just 'cos?

Plus, he's omniscient and omnipotent, so you don't really stand a chance anyway. If you're his enemy and you're not dead, it's 'cos he's messin' with you. You know, building up false hope. I mean, come on, that's just nasty. Enemies of God runnin' around killing innocent folk and raping and stealing and such and he just goes, "Ha! Lookit them! They think they sooo cool! Little do they know... Well. I'm just gonna sit here and watch 'em a bit longer. Man, they're funny." And meanwhile there are people dying and hurting and crying and he's all just like "Hehehe. Lookit!"

So. Either he's a bastard, or he just doesn't care, or he -isn't- all powerful and all knowing. Don't give me none of that "He works in mysterious ways" shit either. That's just some lame ass excuse for his bloody awful behaviour and all of the religion's stupid inconsistancies. You think you can get out of answering questions by saying "Ooh, it's all mysterious" and waving your hands around. Well, that's just bullshit.

What it comes down to is that either he is messin' with us on a daily basis, fucking our lives up, testing us, making shit up, letting evil stalk the earth sort of thing, or he doesn't exist. At all. There ain't no inbetween.

Look - once and for all: any "supreme being" who _forces_ any "lesser creature" into existence in the first place, and then goes on further to _force_ said "lesser creature" to exist _eternally_ MUST by its very nature therefore be *infinitely* sadistic and vengeful... which is what the original thread of this forum was all about in the first place, wasn't it?

And also, my point. As I have stated: we do NOT have any "choice" whatsoever about being brought into existence, and we are apparently also not given any "choice" about ending our existence, either - EVER.

That is _evil_, people - plain, pure, and utter. And it is therefore proof that religion is FALSE; it is a _man-made__ construct only. It simply proves that humans have no idea at all of what life is really all about, nor genuine perception and awareness - for they will blindly believe in obviously-flawed arguements, and kill each other ceaselessly over them.

Hmph. Barely fell from the trees, and they think they know the universe... such hubris. And STUPIDITY.

IAM-
I thought I already explained the free will part. You can't argue yourself out of existence. You do exist as a result of the decisions your parents made. So Iam you think religion completely purely and utterly evil because... we have an opportunity for an eternity in paradise? If your boss gave you an infinitely long paid vacation would you hate him for that as well? You try to twist the truth instead of seeing God as infinitely merciful and infinitely compassionate you say the exact opposite. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. That God is evil and therefore made up by man merely because you are born? Don't take so much credit for yourself. Accepting Christ is not a huge step. All we have to do is accept him, its the easiest thing you can possibly do. Its a decision left up to you.

Tom-

You make a good point, why does God have enemies. It seems ludicrous to me. I struggle with the same thing. Why not just accept it. He certainly doesnt go crying about anything, you are absolutely right he knows everything that is going to happen, that is happening, and that has already happened. God doesnt interfere with anyones lives. Ultimately every decision you make is up to you, thats the brilliance of his creation. We are the ones capable of making our own decisions. If you're his enemy and you're not dead, God doesnt have to worry about it, God wont be going to hell. The time for judgement isnt now its later, no need to exact his vengeance upon his enemies now when the time will come. That must be where the phrase "they'll get theirs in the end" came from. Is it so hard for you to accept that right now God is letting us live our own lives. He's bastard and he certainly does care, he's definately omnipotent and omniscient. I don't say its mysterious but there are something I don't quite understand and that takes me right back to why does God have enemies? I don't know. It doesnt make sense. What it comes down to is you can make good decisions, other people can make bad ones, someone could walk right up behind me and shoot me right now. Did I deserve it? Haha some of you may say yes, but I myself dont think I have done anything wrong to deserve being shot. I'd say I'm a fairly good person and I know plenty of people who would back that claim up. There are also people who don't think I'm a very good person. So maybe good people get hurt in some viewpoints maybe that same person got what was coming to them in other viewpoints. You can't simply say that good people die, because there are NO plain out perfectly good people. This is where God's grace fits in because you don't have to be perfectly good to accept it. Once again, its simply a decision-thing.

lol, whoooooopppsss!

I knew I should have proofread... God is NOT bastard... lol

please don't point out that I made a mistake, I know that.

What does the Bible say happens to people who never got the chance to hear about Christianity, for instance the people who lived before Jesus?

Do you have to be human to “be saved” or to get into heaven? Can dogs go to heaven? Can dogs go to hell? What about apes, chimps, monkeys, dolphins, or parrots?

Is there anything like original sin that burdens other species?

Are mentally handicapped people eligible for salvation and heaven?

What about individuals who are only moderately or slightly mentally handicapped?

What about people who are just plain stupid?

What about young children?

What about children whose parents intentionally deceive them and prevent them from hearing the message of the lord?

What about children whose parents unintentionally teach them false ideas?

What if these children grow up and eventually teach their own children exactly what they were taught, although it is based on a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the Bible’s true message?

What if a priest or preacher imperfectly conveys God’s message to his congregation?

If exceptions are made for those who never got the chance to hear about Jesus, should one person risk another’s eternal life by exposing them to Christianity and therefore making them ineligible for the waiver?

Is there a threshold that defines how much exposure one may have to Christianity before they’re held accountable to it? For example, if an individual’s entire exposure to Christianity consists of having heard the name Jesus Christ just once, would that person be obligated to accept Jesus as their personal savior to be eligible for salvation?

What if the context of that one utterance was a string of obscenities?

What if the meaning of the words in the Bible changes over time, either subtly or drastically?

Do you remember playing that game in school when every one in class sat in a big circle, and one person whispers something to the person next to them, who in turn repeats it to the next person, and so on. By the time the message has gotten around to the last person it has changed from, “The President says ‘No.’” for example, to something like “The piss ant’s ego.” May be 25-30 iterations and it is completely dissimilar to the original message. Well, after 2000 years, Christianity has been through many more iterations. How distorted do you think the story has become in all these years? The point could be made that whereas the whispered message was spoken only, Christianity is accompanied by a text (the Bible) that hasn’t changed. Even without challenging the claim that the text hasn’t changed much from the originals (evidence for this claim is supported by comparison of the dead sea scrolls with modern versions), still the story as it is understood by succeeding generations has to have changed drastically. The world has changed drastically. There is no possible way for a person living today to understand the story as those who heard it first understood it. The reference points; the elements that as we hear the story we parse into logical groupings and assign labels to them (such as “responsibility” or “childhood” or “authority” or “family”) those reference points have all undergone significant metamorphosis so that there is little, if any, similarities between the world we live in now and the world that existed at the beginning of Christianity. And in each and every retelling, the story is mutated ever so slightly, even unintentionally.

Even if you heard it straight from god there are bound to be gaps in one's understanding of Christianity. As you retell the story to subsequent audiences, I think that one can not help but to fuzz over the details we didn’t really understand. Eventually there is so much fuzz that a correction needs to be added. It might just be the slightest seeming change, most likely intended as a correction of something seemingly minor, perhaps simply a matter of grammar. The cumulative affect is that while no particular generation experiences a significant dissonance between the world they live in and the one described, the current details are very different from the original.

^---- wow thats alot of questions

The question "do animals go to heaven too?" is one uttered by many a young child. Quite frankly I'm not certain. If you can ask do animals go to heaven then you'd have to ask the same about plants, after all they are both living things. The Bible doesnt speak of any afterlife for animals. So the question remains up in the air. You can search google for differing viewpoints. The general consensus from what I understand is, there is not enough information to determine the answer.

The old testament tells the story before Jesus. Obviously I can't tell you everything in the old testament but I'm certain that there is an answer to your question about the times before Jesus in there.

http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/theo060.asp I think you might find that an interesting read to understand your questions about original sin, retarded people, misinformation, etc. I do know that intentionally spreading false-truths can put you on the fast track to hell. For people who never have the chance. I'm sure there are more answer's and I'm quite certain that as believers it is our job to spread the truth and minister to the people. Christianity makes up 33% of the worlds religion. Just imagine if all 33% ministered to others like we are all supposed to. I'm certain there would be a great deal less who were not exposed to God's word. Search for infant salvation etc to find out more information.

I am quite fond of the game that you speak of. It never provides a dull moment. There are "Bible Scholars" who spend their whole lives translating the original texts to english and other languages attempting to keep the best possible interpretation of the Bible's original writings, but your point is valid. It is still man's interpretation and naturally there will be misinterpretations in the process. I'm not quite sure what you mean about the string of obscenities. If by meanings of the words in the Bible you mean interpretations or coming to ones own understanding then of course the interpretations have changed over time, but the true message remains the same. Christ died for us and whether we choose to accept that is left up to us.

"Sollte es denn möglich sein! Dieser alte
Heilige hat in seinem Walde noch Nichts davon gehoert, dass Gott tot ist!"
Nietzsche, Also sprach Zarathustra

In a way, Nietzsche killed God once and for all. That's probably a good thing, but one could argue about that.
Maybe the evolution from primitive religion (all ancestors as ghosts, demons, etc.) to polytheism (only a few gods, but powerful ones) to monotheism (one god, almighty) to atheism (no god at all) is unevitable as society progresses. What's for sure: right now there's no single reason to believe in some kind of higher being anymore. Or can someone give me one?

Who is this god person y'all talking about anyway?

MAYBE THE PROBLEM IS YOU CHOOSE TO SEE DEATH IN A NEGATIVE WAY INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO GOD WHO SAYS IT IS JUST ANOTHER BEGINNING

GOD DOES NOT SEND THESE THINGS TO PUNISH US, IT IS US WHO PUNISH OURSELVES BY NOT UNDERSTANDING AND CHOOSING TO REACT SELFISHLY

IF YOU BELEIVED THAT SOMEONES DEATH WAS A CHANCE FOR THEM TO GOTO A BETTER PLACE ... THEN YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY FOR THE PASSING OF SOMEONE YOU HELD SO DEAR SAFE IN THE KNOWLEDGE THEY ARE IN A BETTER PLACE? NO?

IF THERE IS A GOD, I DONT THINK HE MEANT FOR US TO SPEND OUR LIVES DEBATING HIS SHIT, HE MEANT FOR US TO JUST ENJOY WHAT WE CAN OF IT

I SUGGEST YOU STOP TO SMELL THE ROSES ALONG THE ROAD TO YOUR UNANSWERABLE QUESTIONS LEST YOU GOTO A BETTER PLACE HAVING WASTED YOUR TIME HERE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING YOU CANT

PEACE

Just stumbled onto this blod, and found it an interesting read, all the supposed intellectuals, vs the several Christians. Allen, I'm proud of you - it's always hard, especially for n 18-year-old, to take a stand against the prevailing view.

I'm not much for taking time on blogs, message boards etc. But, let me make my contribution.

First of all, I don't expect to convince anyone whose mind is made up. Usually, their minds are made up, not for honest, intellectual reasons, but for self-centered reasons. After all, it's inconvenient to believe in God if it will hamper our lifestyle. After all, we want to do what we want to do, and not have to feel bad about it. I may be making some of you mad by this, but that's okay - I know it's true. I can remember my unbelieving days and have heard it from enough former unbelievers. But, people are afraid to believe, afraid they'll lose their chosen lifestyle, because they don't KNOW God. They don't know that He's a giver, not a taker, and anything you give up to follow Him will be replaced with that which is so much more fulfilling. As the Bible says, "The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love"

Now, I'm absolutely not defendng religion(s). They are for the most part man-made ideas about God that put a heavy burdon on people. Who did Jesus come down on. Was it the sinners? No, It was the Pharasees, the religious people of His day. By the way, I believe God's Word for more that intellectual, or blind faith reasons. I've experienced, as have multiple millions, His love and fogiveness, answered prayer, power and strength to live a far more fulfilling life than before when I was cynical and self-centered.

"God is Love." That's the way He defines Himself in the Bible. And Love wanted company, so He made man "in His image." But He didn't want pupits He could control, for love meant giving freedom. So He made us with free will. And hearin was the dilemma. Free people could reject Him, and fall out of relationship with Him. And so we did. But He had a plan from the beginning of time to come in the form of His sinless son, the only one who could pay the price for our sin, and redeem us, Jesus.

Better stop here and let some of you respond. Say what's on your heart, I'm a big boy and will love you anyway.

You wouldn't believe how much I want to be a believer. What I hear Christians say they have sounds like a very beautiful thing. And, I'll admit: my life is very empty and unfulfilling. I have a lot of motivation to buy into Christianity; it would not only cure the emptiness I feel, but even address the whole eternal damnation thing. But the story is just plain ridiculous. Why would Jesus be "the only one who could pay the price for our sin"? Why would god set up the universe in such a way where that was the only way? And how, exactly, did Jesus’ death pay the price for sins- Adam's, mine, or anyone else's? Didn't the resurrection a few days later basically amount to reneging on the deal? Is that why even though Jesus paid for my sins I could still wind up paying for them again myself, in hell? Considering everything I know about God, Christianity, the world & how it works, history ...I don't think I really like God very much. It's probably mutual.

This next (and final) point may seem a little silly at first glance, but I'm honestly hung up on it: Does god eat? If not, why are we designed with that requirement? I truly believe that the need for food is the root of all evil in the world. Even shelter is really more a luxury than a real need. Food, however, is an absolute necessity that can not be ignored. And it is one of the very few things which all know life forms require. (Whether or not we include plants isn’t really that important of a consideration.) What turns an otherwise nuisance into a sick, morbid, cruel, evil- ness, is that not only do all living creatures need food to survive, but collectively, we are also the sole source of food. We must eat each other.

I've got more of an "argument" to make on that issue, but not the time to make it, at the moment. In fact, I need to wind this up pretty qu

you guys are weird

Naze, If you are referring to me, I'm just sharing my faith, and spiritual truth usually does seem weird to the unbeliever.

If you are referring to George, there is absolutely nothing weird about seeking truth and meaning in life. He's actually in a good place, desiring what is spiritually real, and I pray that both He and you find the joy and fulfilment in life that I have through knowing God in Jesus Christ. If you sincerely seek truth with an open mind and heart, that's where it will be found.

If you are referring to some of the others that have posted here, well, I might tend to agree with you. (Well, not really, those are striking out have hurting hearts and seeking in their own way).

Pope George, glad to see you aren't the type that pontificates. George, God really wants to fill your emptiness. I can answer some of your questions - the answers really aren't hard (except maybe God eatng - never thought of that one, but will). But would like to wait till I have a few minutes, and I need to get back to work.

Meanwhile, would you be willing to sincerely pray, "Jesus, if you are real and are God, reveal yourself to me and help me to believe." You see, it isn't all intellectual, the relationship part is also key. God loves you as his child, no matter where you're at, and wants you to know him and come to him. I did that 33 years ago, and through thick and thin, my life has been rewarding ever since. I'll get back to you more later.

Allen, I checked out the website you referred me to. It directly addresses some of my questions, but even after re-reading it a couple times, it still seems to basically say "Thats a very good question. I'm glad you asked it. Do you have any more questions?" [Kinda off topic, but that reminds me of one of the funniest things I've seen on TV: Marge asks Homer if he's guilty of some minor transgression (I forgot what it was specifically, but it was the sort of thing he was very likely to have done.) Homer says, "Marge, I'm not gonna lie to you." and walks out.]

And, to the extent that it does give an answer, that answer seems a bit... well, not exactly the answer I would expect (as the author himself notes.) Regardless, I do appreciate you having taken the time to find the URL, verify its content, and post it here. Thanks.

Sunray,
Oh, believe me, I have said that prayer in exactly that way, and 10,000 variations of it. I just feel that it has never been answered. Yes, I'm well aware many people would say to me "Dude, look around. Breath the air, feel the sunshine. You're alive! There's your answer." And yet...

One of the earlier comments on this page by Iam was "I don't *want* "eternity" - in ANY form. Period." I have to agree. Eternity really is a very, very long time. The real pisser of it is, near the end of eternity, when you've done and seen and heard and thunk and experienced everything you can possibly do, see, hear, think and experience, for the hundred trillionth time -for the hundred trillion trillionth time- you're just getting started; there is no end to eternity. I can't imagine a sane being looking forward to such a fate.

Anyway...isn't this one heck of a place to have this discussion? A post titled "Religion from South Park" lol

That last post got me thinking about eternity. I mean, wow! Forever is a very, very long time. It is such a long time, that I believe there is no act so wicked, nor even a lifetime dedicated to the pursuit of pure evil; nothing that can be done in a single human lifetime could possibly warrant an eternity of punishment. Especially the type of punishment that is supposed to occur in hell. And if there is a deity who would condemn a human to an eternity of hell as punishment for anything they could possibly have done in their lifetime, or even in any finite number of lifetimes, I really don't want anything to do with that deity. The only act I can imagine that is so evil it might warrant eternal damnation is to punish finite, mortal sin with infinite, eternal damnation.

I apologize for what might appear to be an abrupt change of attitude from my earlier posts. It’s just that one of the things I feel strongly about is injustice. And now that I've thought about it, eternal punishment for mortal sin seems about as unjust as you could possibly get. It angers me that such a possibility exists, especially when you take into consideration the fact that a lot of what we're told we will be judged on isn't the black or white or right or wrong stuff with obvious answers. Most of life occurs somewhere in the moral shades of gray. Sure, we know it is wrong to steal. We know it is wrong to kill. But is it wrong to steal to prevent a death? Is it wrong to lie to prevent someone's feelings from getting hurt? What if we believe that person might commit suicide or murder because of their hurt feelings. If we're to be judged on questions such as these, with eternal damnation as the punishment for guessing wrong, I truly would rather never have been born. I don't want god's gift of life if it comes with those strings attached.

I’m willing to discuss this further with anyone who is interested. Clicking on my name below should link to my blog. Most of this post is duplicated there. Comments are welcome.

How bout all of you think of it like this.. 50% of life says you could live all crazy and do what you want and in the end there is nothing. So you would be half right. But what about the other half? The half that claims truth to this? Maybe you die tomorrow and find yourself infront of someone unfamiliar to you. And for that second you realize you made a mistake that cannot be fixed? I grew up as an atheist till i was a Junior in Highschool... seems to me that a unreachable vast universe may just prove that there is more than being born living and death. I mean out lives are short lived in that matter right? Tell ya what, I never get angry at those who choose not to understand or maybe are confused, but for me, the miracles are what drew me to God. Those miracles turn into blessings and those are far different from luck or whatever you'd like to title it as. You speak one-sidedly, so if you are going to be so bold as to talk bad about something without trying it out then you're points are worthless to read. If you saw a food you never had before would you say it was nasty or would you give it a try? I tried it, and I'm never going back. Sorry but a depressed life from things in this world that just didn't seem fair is not something i wanna return to. So here's the ultimate question for those of you knowledge seeking and/or expressing people, do you know what will become of you when you die? Because it could happen tomorrow? It's out of our hands...

God is very real.. and that voice in you head, the one that sounds like you saying you shouldn't do things you know not to do.. well let's just say God is more a part of you than you might want to believe. A 2000 year old book that accurately protrays how life is now is rather amazing don't you think? There are things in this world we cann't see with our worldy visions, but look to God and it'll shock you when you see what you were missing... life will actually fall into place and things will make sense. Sounds pretty cool to me! Hopefully it does to you too

How about there is no God.

This is kinda embarrassing: I even quoted Iam without realizing I was making the same argument. Even worse, even though I’m sure I had read all the comments (including Iam’s) before making my own, when I had my epiphany about the true nature of eternity, I believed it was my own original idea. Either way, Iam, I apologize for the plagiarism.

Talking to X-tians is talking to a brick wall, it's like telling Tom Cruise that Scientology is bollocks. They always have to bring up the bible, but who wrote it? Man did. Who compiled it? Who edited it? It's a document, not delivered by god, the persistence of propaganda throughout history is incredible in how it feeds on man's fear and need to 'belong' - Jesus by the way, although a historical figure, was a dark skinned, good jewish boy who probably got married and never claimed to be the son of god.

Have any of you on this long comment thread read Lee Strobel's "The Case For Christ" and "The Case For Faith"? I don't really have the time right now to get into a large-scale theological debate, but for those who are looking to explain suffering, Christ, etc. you'd probably find it quite illuminating.

Way back when man started to walk on two legs ,something ,...perhaps an earthquake, scared the hell out of him. Something more powerful than he made the ground shake. He was not at the top of the food chain anymore, and to prevent the mountains from moving , he figured he should show subservience to this great unknown and unseen Alpha being. So man offered food and a grunt or two just to appease this scary "God". People, we have been living a well orchestrated lie ever since. Kept in check by organized cults and tyranical oppressors since the written word came to be , always fearing the wrath of some spiritual bogeyman if we don't abide by the "rules". I , for one, ain't buyin into it anymore ...harumph !!

then abide by nothing, believe in nothing, and do whatever you wanna do. Enjoy life as you want it if so be. But when we die, we'll see who was right and who was wrong... so for all you atheists... you better hope there isn't anything because you not wanting to follow a simple book (yet believing what others say is true) is crazy. You will never know because you can't seem to believe, and I can never tell you what it feels like because you stuck on a world that lives for nothing and dies in vain. You try it out, feel what I feel and then we'll see whos really got the edge... (and i was an atheist for 17 years of my life, so I know where you're (there is no God) thoughts are coming from.

Tao is the way

Nice work chaps well argued to all yet;
You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power. Just sums it up for me...

I enjoyed your site so much so i have to say it to you. girl can hope table

A very friendly site. Have a nice day! profound, good, white nothing comparative to standard

Jim, Its not that atheists do not be in anything. They just believe in what can be proven.

This is the thing, according to the christian mythology God can do whatever he wants to, anything, so if you bealive this then why, why does he let bad people kill inocent and good people, it makes no sense. If he is allmigthy and knows past, present and future why is it that he doesnt prevent bad things.

This is the thing, according to the christian mythology God can do whatever he wants to, anything, so if you bealive this then why, why does he let bad people kill inocent and good people, it makes no sense. If he is allmigthy and knows past, present and future why is it that he doesnt prevent bad things.

Another thing if God is most powerful being in the whole universe and he has the power to do anything, why the hell doesnt he just oblirerate Satan, why he doesnt just eliminate him, like "delete" and end of "evil".

You are all thinking way too much. Everybody know that it just takes faith. There's stuff that is just too wacky to explain, and all that other junk that was said is just dumb, except for maybe the thing about the cucumber. If you just accept it, things are so much better. For real, man.

I live in 61727 Las Vegas, Nevada. Have you been here before?

It seems I've got quite a knack for making arguments thats have already been made, often by people much brighter than myself. What I'm referring to is the questions I raised in my first comment (on April 23rd) regarding the way the meanings of words gradually change over time. It turns out Thomas Paine addressed exactly that question (and several other very pertinent ones)way back in 1794, in The Age of Reason (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm). What he claims was the definition of "prophesying" or what it was a "prophet" did, for example, substantially devalues the Bible and the mighty churches built upon it. That's kinda what I was getting at with my questions.

to: BRIAN who made the post on april 22, 2006 also to ALLEN (not directly)

Your whole philosphy about god and being grateful to be alive well...its a good point and I'd probally believe you. But your whole argument is developed around the fact that:

our solar system is the only one in the universe that has the sun in the center with planets revolving around it and Earth being the perfect distance from the sun.

Quote: "Doesn't it strike you as odd that out of "nine trillion of galaxies", there's only been one exactly just like ours? With the sun exactly where it is, our planet exactly at such so right a distance from the Sun? And all the other planets in the solar system just exactly where they are?"

Ok now, that is your only posted argument of this God guy really existing and why we should be so gratefull and nobel to him.

First of all, where did you figure out their are 9trillion galaxies.

Second of all, wheres the proof that our galaxy is the only one with; planets revolving around the sun, and earth being the perfect distance from the sun

Alright so Brian you can suck my nuts because you have no scientifc backup nor do you even qualifications to lecture me about christianity.

I dont kno shit about science or religion but i do kno that christianity is a big bag full of shit that has been passed around for thousands of years and people have added and taken away shit from the bag

---> bag of shit is symbolism for the bible aka. jesus

damn that metaphor came from me just now...dope

anyways about that Brian i kno your views will probally not change because im just an unknown to you and mean nothing

but honestly i could care less about what you believe in. Hey if believing in something that brings false hope works for yea. Thats great at
least its doing something.

Im just speakkng the truth and to you christian people you guys are FOOLS for believing in something so R-tarded.

Also to ALLEN, you refuse to challenge God and ask him the question you are confused about

OH yea...right...i forgot you cant speak to your God

shit sry mate i though ti ould you out

ps. not everyones a christians and not everybody wants to be

why... because its completely full of shit

BIGGEST DEUCHE in the UNIVERSE---> ALLEN (in respects to southpark)

Wow. I posted my last comment after only reading the first few chapters of The Age of Reason. I didn't know then just how thoroughly Thomas Paine completely destroys any claim to legitimacy (or plausibility, or even possibility) that the Bible or Christianity might have had. The argument he makes against Christianity is irrefutable. Using the Bible itself and no other reference, he highlights the numerous contradictions and inconsitancies, the unlikely and the logically impossible accounts. He also notes:

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.

We scarcely meet with anything, a few phrases excepted, but what deserves either our abhorrence or our contempt...."

Anyway....I'd really like to hear what Christians think about The Age of Reason. (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm)

Peace.

watch south park online at http://udorjey.blogspot.com