November 07, 2006

“Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer” – Benedict Carey; “Arm-twisting with the Almighty” – David G. Myers; “Astrology and Prayer” – Chet Raymo

Post questions/comments in response to the readings

Posted by nicho008 at November 7, 2006 02:51 PM
Comments

long-awaited study: I find it very interesting that a study sponsored by a spiritual foundation, and performed by a sympathetic scientist found results that showed that prayer made no difference in treatment, and may possibly cause anxiety. Clearly, this was not a study orchestrated by scientists rigidly opposed to the idea of prayer, so the study is hard for believers to discredit on those terms. It would be interesting to also do a study involving intimates praying for the ill instead of strangers. Perhaps the anxiety may lesson, since the intercessors would be family/friends.

Arm twisting: It seems to me that the results of these prayer tests are conclusively non responsive. There honestly seems to be no difference to the prayed for groups. Thus you can find 3 answers: 1. There is no God. 2. God doesn't care or will not answer people's prayers 3. (this is the one the author seems to believe) Prayers are not supposed to ask things of God, but to glorify/confess to God. Most Christians would not accept either 1 or 2; 1 obviously, and number 2 would completely conflict with the ideas that Jesus brought into Christianity of a kind and loving God. People do not want to believe that God just doesn't care or won't do anything because it seems cruel, malignant and morally reprehensible. Inaction to prevent a crime IS a crime==and this idea stems from Christian traditions including the "Good Samaritan".

astrology and prayer: First, I'd like to say that it seems to me that the reason people are so caught up with prayer, even when it seems to fail (especially in the epidemics quoted here), is that for some, it is the only way they know how to react. The nuns and the native people of Zaire did not have access to enough equiptment to even clean their needles properly, let alone deal with an outbreak. In times past, when people feel helpless and have no control over a situation, they attempt to do something to control the situation by proxy. If THEY cannot directly control death and illness, perhaps God can--if they pray. It is a way for humans to deal with things beyond their grasp, and it is comforting. Because even if it fails, they couldn't control it--therefore God wanted to take these people to heaven or whatever the justification.
Additionally, prayer is still used in places like the USA or Britain or Switzerland because medical science is not perfect. People still die of cancer, heart attacks and kidney failure, so when science can't help, believers turn to prayer for the same reasons as I listed above.
Second, I'd like to draw a link between the 2 ideas presented so close together. It is clear that the author wants us to draw a parallel between believing in astrology and believing in prayer. Both are essentially proven to be empty according to science, but both play a role in controling the uncontrolable and offering comfort where science cannot. Granted more people would probably accept prayer than astrology, but they are very similar structured beliefs. By one account, the stars and the cosmos are in control, by the other, it's God at the wheel. Either way, you are looking at a blind belief in unsubstantiated methods, which utilize ritual behavior from believers to affect the "result". Some might be offending by this link between what most consider "superstition" and a religion, but it is very difficult to distinguish the two.

Posted by: Julia Cryne at November 7, 2006 10:58 PM

At the end of the Carey article Bob Barth says that the cardiac patient prayer study is just the beginning of this kind of research. He has a point, but I don't think he is thinking along the same lines as me. I here by propose a systematic study of the efficacy of prayer in other religious traditions. Will a group of Iranian Imams praying for coronary patients in France have any more of an effect? Does reciting the Torah give Indian cancer patients a better survival rate? Do Mormon prayers have a positive impact on Catholic patients? There are so many variables, both scientific and theological, that creating a research project to account for them all would be absurd.

Which brings me to Myers' “God effect”, that one day, maybe, we could market God's favor for the benefit of those willing to pay. He's being sarcastic, of course, but he isn't exactly proposing anything new, in past centuries they were called indulgences and people would pay to have sins forgiven or illnesses healed. There is something I do take issue with, and Myers points this out, the idea that if God were to act in medical matters that it would be slight. I may have this wrong, but last time I checked God didn't act subtly, it's usually something big and bold, with no mistaking that it is an act of God.

And as Raymo points out, all these studies are pretty much moot to begin with because the people who believe in the efficacy of prayer, or astrology, are going to believe no matter what anyone else tells them. But, is it really so bad if someone believes in the power of prayer, or astrology, or ufo's or whatever, as long as it isn't hurting anyone else?

Posted by: Josh at November 8, 2006 12:27 PM

For me, all three articles pretty much hit on the same points, that prayer either has no affect or is impossible to accurately study and for people who believe in the power of prayer, they're always going to believe in it. I was surprised to find that there have been so many studies trying to find the effectiveness of prayer, different techniques (like does the person know they’re being prayed for?) but overall, I was surprised to find out that so much money was spent on it. I mean come on, the government spent 2.3 million bucks since the year 2000 to study prayer. To have study after study come to the conclusion that prayer doesn’t really have an effect, or if it does it may be due to other factors, makes you wonder why we’re spending money on this. As the Meyers article mentioned, if this were a new drug from the pharmaceutical industry, we would have given up on it a long time ago.

But people are still going to believe in the power of prayer, because if you really think about it, most people really pray when they’re in trouble. No one’s going to pray about a ho-hum day at work. You’re going to pray when you feel alone, threatened or sick because at that point, you really have nothing else to cling to besides blind luck. But then you have the people who cite personal experience as evidence that prayer works. My psychology class has taught me that confirmation bias is a powerful thing; people will look for evidence that supports their claim and bluntly ignore anything to the contrary. If you ask someone if they believe in the power of prayer, they’ll most likely think of a time in which prayer “worked” for them and then answer yes. They’re not going to remember the countless times prayer didn’t work and consider that in the equation. I don’t know about anyone else, but 10 studies in the last six years with no decisive conclusion, I don’t think anyone’s mind is going to be changed.

Posted by: Jennifer Henderson at November 8, 2006 04:02 PM

Astrology & Prayer: I think that Astrology was really interesting, I look at the horoscopes it the paper all the time, but it really is more to say that will never happen. I never really think that the stars will be able to tell what is going to happen to me. Another thing that I don't really get is that you are separated into different categories depending what birthday you have, but what are the odds that all the people in you sign will all have the same future, it really is not likely. I think the Prayer research is kind of pointless. If the results are proven then religious people will gloat, and if there is no result the same people will say that it is because God does not to be involved in a science experiment. There are also no facts yet to prove prayers works, or at least not enough that it is not considered chance.
"Long-Awaited Medical Study Question the Power of Prayer": Like the Prayer part of the above I really think that if there was any way to prove prayer helped medically then everyone would do it and that would be wrong. People would pray to someone they don't know anything about and it would cheapen God. I really don't think that prayer really helps in medical situations, I think the main use of prayer is to help comfort the one sick or the love ones of the sick. The fact that the government is spending millions on something that should only be used because of fate is wrong. If isn't proven (and it hasn't) people with fate will still pray and the ones who don't believe won't. It really isn't helping/hurting anyone, and the money can be used for better things.
"Arm-twisting with the Almighty": This was just like the other articles on prayer. It showed that prayer seemed not to have any effect at all the only time it did they believe that there was foul play and that it wasn't scientific. I think that event though all the studies have shown the lack of proof that prayer works, people will still prayer. This shows that people need to have someone to put all there problems on. It is a lot easier to say that god will help instead of just sitting there hopeless. Then if nothing happens and the sick person dies then they say that it was god's choice. So therefore they have someone to blame and with that blame it will help them move pass it more then if they are just blaming no one and they have no one to put there feelings on. This shows that no matter what tests show people will always prayer anyway.

Posted by: Holly at November 8, 2006 04:54 PM

Long Awaited Medical Study: The idea of “studying prayers” seems to me like they are trying to put a scientific approach to something that occurs purely by chance. Whatever happened to the phrase “Thou shalt not tempt the lord?” Testing God’s response to human prayers seems a little degrading – like testing a mouse to see if it will go through a maze and reach the cheese. And I don’t understand how they can categorize people into different “test groups.” Each person is completely unique and different from another individual. Medically, two people might have the same condition, but their lives are completely separate! God sees everything – right? - besides the medical facts that a patient might have a family history of cancer, or that another patient might have had a broken arm when they were six. God knows everything that each person has thought, seen, done, and learned. So how could you possibly combine even two people in the same group – when in reality, they are completely opposite from each other! It doesn’t make sense.

Arm-Twisting with the Almighty: I see prayer like the relation between parent and child. How many times does a child asked their mother or father for something, and sometimes the answer is “yes,” and sometimes the answer is “no.” Although the child may not get what they want – it doesn’t hurt for them to ask to begin with. Therefore some prayers are answered and some aren’t. Since it is my belief that there is meaning to everything that happens within our lives, God (like a parent) knows which things are better for us – even though we (as children) might not always agree with his final decision.

Astrology and Prayer: I think that Astrology is just another way to try to see the truth. There have been several times where I read my horoscope just out of curiosity, and my “profile” was completely true, and then, there have been other times, where it is completely false. I’m sure that astrology can fit every person in one way or another – but it is not entirely precise enough to be accurate every time.

Posted by: Jacquelyn at November 8, 2006 06:01 PM

I think the very idea that prayer can be studied like this is crazy. We have already decided in class that no where in the near future will there be harmony between science and religion, mostly because they are so different. So to study prayer in a scientific way is absurd. And we also have to remember, prayer deals with God, and God does not like to be tested. True, he states in the bible that he answers prayer, but in His own way. Thats what we need to remember. All this aside, I found the articles interesting, especially how the results were so inconsistant. I have just one question: what is the point of wasting all that money on a study such as this?

Posted by: Elizabeth at November 8, 2006 06:15 PM

Long-awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer: I believe that a lot of recoveries can come from prayer I also believe that people get better faster and stronger when they know someone is praying for them because it gives them hope and assperation!!!! I have also believed that people can develop a sense of healing through prayer that also helps them get through the surgery or recovery situation!!

Arm-twisting with the Almighty: I thought some of this was not right!! The fact that all these tests that they performed on whether prayer can help someone or not get better was negative. I thought that was unbelievable!! If that were true then where is God? There would probably be a big riot wondering if God is not answering our prayer then is he really a reality? Or is God a figment of our imagination? These are the questions that people would press if prayer did not work to help heal or prevent more infection or anything like that!!

Astrology and Prayer: If things don't work and thats why there not real or that they can't be explained then they are not real then how can people be real when we really don't know how we got here ourselves!!?? I can believe that people are getting healed from prayer by other people without them knowing it and with them knowing it!! The ones that don't get prayed for there is a little difference in there recovery time!! I believe that people can get healed by prayer and hope from people around you and if that person has enough hope that they will get through it they most likely will!!

Posted by: Angela Walker at November 8, 2006 06:48 PM

I think studying prayer is interesting, because it’s one of the few religious things that lends itself to actually being tested and experimented with scientifically. Granted, there a lot of factors that are difficult to include, as noted in the various articles, but prayer is the closest thing to a religious concept that can be studied in a cause and effect sort of way. However, it’s easy to argue (and is being argued in these blogs) that testing prayer is testing God and thus an essentially futile endeavor, and there really is no satisfying reply to that that I’ve been able to come up with.

Why spend money on a study like this, then? Well, suppose that the results were reversed. Suppose that these studies instead showed that the prayed-for groups showed dramatic, indisputable improvements in recovery time, survival rate, complications, etc. What would the response of believers be? I really doubt they would still be muttering about the futility and presumptuousness of trying confine God with the scientific method. I expect they would be instead be parading about the results as a indisputable affirmation of the almighty power of God, and it would indeed be a powerful message. It would also open up new avenues for medicine and healing in general. Doesn’t that possibility make the effort worth it, regardless of the results?

As for the astrology bit… I’ve never understood the appeal of astrology in the slightest. Ignoring the fact that it’s so vaguely worded to be applicable to any person anywhere, and the fact that it’s been thoroughly debunked by science in every way, and that it’s so blatantly pseudo-science reliant on telling people what they want to hear, isn’t belief in astrology rather incompatible with belief in free will? Why do people actually WANT to believe that the quality of their day and course of their life is dependant on something entirely out of their control?

Posted by: Ben Thomas at November 8, 2006 07:30 PM

Power of Prayer & Arm Twisting With the Almighty:

The conclusion that prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of patients is of critical importance to the fundamental validity of science. Results showing that prayer will heal the sick would seem to undermine the basic assumptions of science, that all mysteries can be explained through an understanding of natural phenomena.

Concerning the belief that prayer can improve healing, what about those who aren’t prayed for? Are the unloved doomed to death, solely because someone else out there doesn’t give a damn about them? Is a gravely ill baby more likely to live just because someone else in the world wants it to? Will it be more likely to die because its mother is an atheist? Isn’t this akin to God punishing children for the ‘faults’ of their parents?

The basic premise of prayer, that the apparent value of an individual in the eyes of others will influence the inherent value of that individual in God’s eyes, seems deeply, deeply, flawed. Of course, you could argue that God values the prayed-for equally either way, and he is simply responding to the faith and devotion of the other people. This then raises the question: who is God helping when he heals through prayer? If it’s for the benefit of the prayed-for, why wouldn’t he heal them for their own benefit in the absence of that prayer? If it’s for the benefit of those praying (because they have demonstrated they really, really want the prayed-for to live), then isn’t God giving their desires more consideration than the desires of the person near death?

Also, how do you find people in monasteries willing to subject their most deeply held beliefs and rituals to scientific testing? The whole idea that a religious group of people would go along with this is very, very surprising to me. Additionally, how can we even begin to believe that the prayer is “genuine” under the circumstances of a study? The prayer in this case is highly REGULATED (you pray for this person and this person and this person, but not that person), DICTATED (you will utter this specific phrase somewhere in your prayer), and STUDIED—this does not sound like genuine prayer to me! I wonder if perhaps prayer research should be abandoned, because the sincerity of the prayers under consideration is a HUGE variable completely un-measurable by scientific methods.

Astrology and Prayer:

One study concluded that prayer “works” because prayed-for patients needed less respiratory therapy and fewer antibiotics. But it also noted that the length of hospital stays and the mortality rates among these people was unchanged. How can such results conclude that prayer has any effect? If the prayed-for people are staying just as long in the hospital, then surely they have similarly serious reasons for staying, even if their particular complications don’t require the use of antibiotics or respiratory therapy! If mortality rates are identical, then what little incidental things occur before their deaths are irrelevant from a “prayer can heal” standpoint.

Posted by: Bryan at November 8, 2006 08:29 PM

The articles covered a lot of similar context, so I am just writing reactions to all 3 of them:

First, I really do not think prayer should be tested scientifically. It seems kinda weird. I found it interesting that they had congregations from random churches pray for these individuals in the study. Not only were churches praying for unknown people. The congregations were given a script that they read verbatim. (Long-awaited medical…) I do not know if I would consider this real prayer. Yes, maybe the people care, but is that type of praying as strong or as real as if they were praying for a family member?

Also, we’re not supposed to ask for things, God will save a person if He believes they should be saved. Sometimes prayers are not answered because a person prays (asks) for something they shouldn’t be asking for. Or, lets say I ask for someone to be healed, God may have a different plan. Sometimes we understand His plan immediately, sometimes we understand it later, and othertimes we may never understand it.

Lastly, Raymo comments about prayer not being able to save a virus. And no, prayer itself cannot. We need medical help. Look at history, or even Hmongs in Laos today (for example). They believe in spiritual healing. This isn’t going to work (and hasn’t worked). They move to St. Paul and want to disregard Western medicine. Growing up in America, I know that without the help of Western medicine, people will die. We need medical help/knowledge. However, the help of prayer may strengthen the healing process.

Posted by: Casey at November 8, 2006 10:00 PM

I’ve always been interested in learning about these studies on prayer. Skeptics say it is unscientific, although I can see the value of studying it elsewhere. I agree with Dr. Richard Sloan who argued that quantifying this type of data is problematic. I can understand why the studies conducted have produced negative results, indicating that prayer has no effect on outcome whatsoever. I don’t doubt the power of prayer--I have seen how people can achieve comfort and strength from praying--but more realistically, I don’t doubt the power of happenstance. Maybe prayer can temporarily give someone a more positive outlook, but when their prayers are unanswered, how does that make a person feel? I guess the idea of a prayer is that it’s supposed to be a request, but can’t God be more empathetic?
The Raymo reading made me realize that our culture is intrigued by psuedoscience and has little knowledge about real science. I think it would be interesting to learn about how much other countries are advanced in education and if there is some connection between theism and disbelief. As far as astrology goes, I think there’s a reason why horoscopes are located on the same page as the comics in the newspaper.

Posted by: Jenna at November 8, 2006 10:06 PM

Benedict Carey
The long awaited medical study was a good attempt to prove if the power of prayer works, but I don't believe the statistics. Prayer is not something you can treat like science by saying if x happens then y. I am not saying prayer doesn't work, but I just don't believe it can be measured by any scientific study. Also what is prayer? Does everyones prayer have the same power? What does prayer have to do with concentration?

Arm Twisting with the Almighty
This article goes into another prayer study that yielded predictable results. The effectiveness of prayer is supposedly measured here because of a study done called the STEP experiment. I believe that everyones prayer can help another person, and the more people you have praying for you the better, but I really have a hard time believing that prayers are answered for us just because we wish them to be. Bad things happen and that is a fact, so why should a person who prays be protected from that?

Chet Raymo: Astrology
The author is very skeptical about astrology in this article. I can see why, but I never knew that astrology was considered to be in the realm of real science. I spoke with an astrologist before and I could tell that he was a good guy who cared about people. To me there is nothing wrong with astrology. If someone wakes up and reads their horroscope so that they feel good about themselves then I am all for it. I don't see how bashing prayer and astrology helps promote science. Its a fact that medicine can instantly cure people, while having faith may not be able to do same thing does that mean it is lesser? Scientists often get confused with prayer because of its personal connection between people and God, and they probably think that if prayer worked then God would answer. My belief in prayer is that it always works just not always when we want it to, because you might feel a response when you least expect it from a thought of God that you had a while ago.

Posted by: Kshaman Reddy at November 8, 2006 10:52 PM

“Long- Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer”- Benedict Carey

Does prayer really work? It clearly said in this article, that prayers have no effect on people who were undergoing heart surgery. In the article, people who knew that they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms. This could be because of the expectations of the prayers that were created. I think when people know they are being prayed for, it gives them hope and the strength to do well, and carry on a good recovery. Usually when you know someone is watching out, caring for you, you always try to do your best. Also, in general I think it is hard to do research on prayer. Prayer is something people need to believe and have faith in, in order for it to work. The people, who are picked for the previous studies, might have not believed in God, prayer, or probably had no faith at all. I think prayer also depends on what your faith is, and how you believe. Even though the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started, I don’t for see any new results in the future about the research in prayer.

“Arm-twisting with the Almighty”- David G. Myers+

This article talked about a research study on prayer that did work. The results were six out of twenty-six patients did better after being prayed for. I don’t think this is a high enough number to say prayer really does work. Not even half the people benefited from being prayed for. There are a lot of factors to consider with this research. One, the faith of the people who are in the hospital and being prayed for; two- the faith of those people praying for the people in the hospital, if they believe in prayer or not, three- the person recording the data of the patients results, and there could be many more reasons why this study may not work out. This study has been done a few times in many years, and through the results, it clearly shows that either prayer doesn’t work, or it’s impossible to test that it does work.

“Astrology and Prayer”- Chet Raymo

I liked reading Raymo’s one chapter in his book; I found it to be quite appealing. The chapter started out by talking about the religious panic that swept Roman Catholic families in Colombia about any soul who is not baptized by June 6, 1996, would be claimed by the Antichrist on the Last Day. If I would have heard that like those Roman Catholic families did, I would be terrified. A person would be wondering why, what, or how could of this come about. Raymo talks about these sorts of things like this and the millennium. How many people thought the world was going to come to an end when it turned to be 2000? My suspicions of that happening were very small. I really didn’t think it was possible. In the book, I took the credulity index, and I found out that I had more “false” answers than “true”, so this means I am a Skeptic. I never thought of myself as a Skeptic, but I guess I never thought of myself as a True Believer either. Another part I found interesting, was when it talked about understanding astrology, and if we cannot understand why it works, then it must not work. What if we had this attitude to everything in life? For instance, I’m taking physics at the U of M, and sometimes I don’t understand some of the concepts right away, so should I just give up trying, and say it must not work? I think not. That is why we have research, studies, and people who are interested in finding out how things work, so that everyone else can better understand it in life. It also talks about how God may simply refuse to cooperate with scientific tests of his power. But doesn’t God want us to believe in him? If he answers our prayers, that can in return show us that he cares, and that we should believe he really exists. Overall, I don’t think prayer should be researched. We need to have faith and belief that it works not scientific evidence to tell us it does.

Posted by: Jenny Salzer at November 8, 2006 11:02 PM

long awaited medical study-
this article presents a sort of rare instance in which religion can be directly studied with a scientific approach. its not all that suprising to me that the results were so inconsistent though. even if a certain group of these people going under surgery were being prayed for and proved to have a better recovery than others, the results would still lead to a dead end. and this wasn't even the case! i do however believe that the placebo effect applies to a certain extent with some of these patients. one analogy works well which is the replacing of aspirin with sugar pills, and people telling themselves they felt better. i realize that heart surgery is a bit more serious of an example, but if someone who was already extremely religious knew that they were being prayed for, they may really convince themselves that they are in better condition than they really are. but my point is, even if repeated tests showed prayer resulted in a better patient recovery, we would still arrive at a dead end. nothing would be uncovered as to specifically why the prayer had worked, as well as why it didn't work consistently, every time.

Posted by: kyle imes at November 8, 2006 11:22 PM

arm twisting-
this article addresses the same study as in the other one, among others as well. this article confirms again that prayer has not yet been seen to have any positive effect on health. this article also brought up another point in my mind. if one does genuinely believe that prayer is beneficial to someone's health, which many do from my understanding, how do you account for all of those that have been proven to not benefit from prayer? were they not being prayed for properly? or are they just less deserving of divine healing than others? its really hard to say. but the whole idea to try to scientifically test the ability of prayer is an interesting one.

Posted by: kyle imes at November 8, 2006 11:32 PM

astrology and prayer-
this was an very good reading. i agreed with everything that the author had to say. i like how he paired astrology and religion, because they basically are one in the same. i think many people accept astrology for the same reasons that they accept religion. i'm sure that these reasons are incredibly varied, but over time i've gotten the impression that people want to feel important, and they want to believe some sort of mysticism or divine spirit is the cause of their existence. i think that everyone would enjoy knowing that that were the case, but accepting it without any sort of proof or evidence, solely on the desire to have it be true, is a lost cause. the author put it well when he paired astrology/religion as taking an emotional approach, while science is a rational one. however seemingly cold or unexciting science may be to some, it certainly doesn't make it false. i also liked the paragraph that spoke about how even though prayer was proven to have no effect on healing, religious folk would still stand by it with the excuse that god just didn't feel like excersing his power that day. what was the purpose of setting up a scientific study of prayer if you can't accept the negative results. its an argument that can't be won by any rational person unfortunately.

Posted by: kyle imes at November 8, 2006 11:54 PM

Long Awaited Study - I thought this article shed some good light on the subject, but also left alot of room for chance to play a role. They did use a large quantity of patients, but there is always that chance that their condition could have been decided by the quality of the procedure or the person's medical condition prior to the operation, based on severity. What's also interesting though is that the people who did know fared much worse than those that didn't. I can believe that the fact that they knew they were being prayed for struck fear into them with the idea that they were so far gone, only prayer was the answer now. It's like the alcoholics, I think by telling them they were being prayed for caused their self-esteem to drop more, and so they drank more. It's that idea that I an find believeable.I think a deeper look into this subject may or may not yield greater results, it's just one of those things that we may never know the truth about.

Arm-Twisting God - This article caught me off guard at the end when the author ended up being pretty christian. I thought he was arguing the idea that prayer doesn't do much of anything, but he really was just saying that this isn't only what god is for. I agree, it seems like alot of people find faith when they need god, especially in life and death situations.

Chet Raymo - I think Chet was a little harsh on the Astrology. Yeah, it's not all that precise and stuff, but it's fun. Who can say they don't ask to be read their horoscope when someone reads the paper. Alot of times I think its optomistic outlooks have a positive effect on it's readers. Putting full belief in it may be different though. The part about prayer seemed a little familiar at this point, but it did rouse some new ides. There are many more variables in the prayer experiments that anyone would think of. How do we know someone's not praying for the people in the non-prayers group? How do we know that the people who are supposed to be praying are? These along with the medical and physicals variables make for a very inaccurate result. There may be no way to determine an answer to this question.

Posted by: Evan at November 9, 2006 12:27 AM

In the Raymo excerpts we read, I had some problem with the section about prayer. His final thought was that the power of prayer would always be explained by obvious scientific evidence. I find this to be a logical argument, but it portrays current science as all knowing. Modern science is only now able to search deep into our universe and deep into atoms. In these mysterious realms there is mystery and until then I don’t think the power of thought and the non-physical should be ruled out. Science is not able to tell me how it is because there is so much unknown all around me. I believe that if you are in a room full of people meditating and being peace, there are things happening in that room that I do not believe can be accurately described by current science. If you believe in the healing powers of a certain medicine then I believe that medicine is much more effective. If you think positively about a glass of water I believe it will have medicinal properties when you drink it. Particles are bouncing off all things and inter mingling with each other, and there are just theories about the smaller units of matter. The sub atomic scientific world was created by a handful of insane chemists trying to attempt to form a theory that made some order in an extremely chaotic and mysterious world. Science is made out to be such a solid form of knowledge. I believe this is somewhat true but it is not as stable as people think because it is not nearly complete. And sure if Raymo wants to sight two or three examples to discount the power of prayer that does not mean that he has any idea about the true nature of human and non human thought and feelings. He waves his banner of science, but does not seem to take into account that what he stands behind is in its infancy and is only a piece of the puzzle.

Posted by: severin at November 9, 2006 12:30 AM

These studies proved that prayer cannot affect the recovery time of hospital patients. But, it does provide proof that prayer is deeply emotional and may motivate and empower individuals on a personal level to overcome a barrier like disease or other ailment.

It's amazing 2.4 million dollars was spent for the STEP program studying prayer. It appears this study could be completed for less. Nevertheless, this study on prayer was seemingly well run and very thourough.

Prayer is certainly very personal, but positive effects related to prayer can not prove the existence of a higher power, only the empowerment of the human condition. Prayer reinforces hope and can motivate.

Posted by: Brock at November 9, 2006 08:24 AM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:17 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:17 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:18 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:18 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:18 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:20 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:20 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:21 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:21 PM

One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 20, 2007 06:22 PM

Some nice stuff...
http://buygenericviagr.forumlivre.com/
buy biagra [url=http://buygenericviagr.forumlivre.com/]buy biagra[/url]

Posted by: biagra at July 25, 2007 04:34 AM

Find this interesting?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/search/google?keywords=site%3Aforumlivre.com%20biagra
buy biagra [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/search/google?keywords=site%3Aforumlivre.com%20biagra]buy biagra[/url]

Posted by: biagra at August 6, 2007 09:06 PM
Post a comment









Remember personal info?






The views and opinions expressed in this page are strictly those of the page author. The contents of this page have not been reviewed or approved by the University of Minnesota.