Rhetoric 3371 Questions

I found chapter eight really interesting, because for the first time I was seeing a different face on the railroads system. Up until now I saw the railroads as being the most important factor in expanding westward, and that if you lived near a railroad that stopped in your town your success in the west was guaranteed. After reading this chapter however I found it interesting that instead of creating new opportunities for settlers who were looking for a better life, they only made it more difficult. People could not afford to pay the higher prices the railroads were demanding for their land. In the end, these people ended up being controlled by the railroad systems. Their town would live or die on the sole basis of the unfixed prices the railroad charged to ship things or if it decided to make a stop in a particular town at all. No wonder people were striking the railroads, they were pretty much had power over everyone including the government. I also appreciate that in this chapter they are finally addressing the negative effects they are putting placing on their environment and people. I thought it was especially funny when Nye writes that they would make advertisements for artificial limbs in railroad journals because casualties were so high.

I finally feel like i am learning the real history of the railroads and the U.S. here. Or at least another part of the story. The first narrative about the trains is so painfully wraught to show the railroads as the best of american ingenuity that it had to be created by the best bullshitters of the time. and in modern times the best all seem to work for money. We see in chapter eight possibly one of the first corporate rulers of america. slavery was a big one, Steel and railroads seem to come next. In american intentions to avoid aristocract through small government, we allow corporations to be that ruling class. the pain that the railroads caused many people seemed to be the beginning of many problems we still face today. The pollution mentioned is something that we are just now beginning to see the consequences of, as shown by global warming. That is just the quickest example that comes to mind. the corporate ruling class could be another.
Something that i think this text shows really well is that the technology that propels and changes the face of our society was beginning to speed up at this point. The quote involving julius caesar and george washington rang particularly true to me. If the difference between caesars time to washingtons time is similar enough for the author to make the comparison and then just 100 years is enough to blow george washingtons mind, the next 150 years until the present show an insane speed of growth to the point of absurdity.
Thoreu summed it up well when he compared the daily coming of the train to the daily rising of the sun. it was somthing inevitable. While he looked upon the sun with joy however, he looked upon the train as he looked on people and their "progression" it was sometting he just couldn't get away from.

There's a particular passage in the Thoreau excerpt I like. "Up comes the cotton, down goes the woven cloth; up comes the silk, down goes the woollen; up come the books, but down goes the wit that writes them." I thinkt that the last bit about books and wit could be about modest Henry himself, but it doesn't really interest me. The first part is an excellent example, for me, of how an objective fact lends itself into its narratives. In this case, the raw materials go to the city via the rail road and come back out as products for consumption. This bland fact participates so easily in a foundation narrative, where the railroad brings civillity to the country, or in its counter narrative, where the railroad leaks pernicious civilization into the pristine wilderness. Thoreau later goes on to anthropomorphize the train, and he makes it into an imposing beast of some kind of alienated civilization upon an idyllic nature, but I don't think he could do this without the quote I mentioned above. Regardless of how Henry David fleshes it out, it's a great place to start. The railroad is set up as the indisputable bond between nature and civilization. The normative propertis of this link fan out from here, but an excellent account the railrod as a bond.

Oh to have a day where instead of paying attention to the things happening in front of me I could sit and watch it go bye. To completely absorb all of the sounds and sights and emotion in the details of life. Thoreau romanticizes transportation through this attention to detail, (and wonderful word choice and amazing writing and all of that) but it makes me wonder what new technology could take its place? What new technology is pervasive enough in everyday life that it would be so well regarded if I spent the day enjoying its presence? Could I come up with beautiful words to describe the humming of my computers screen or the glow of endless tvo’d shows I’ve missed? I guess I'm not sure Thoreau was in favor of trains... but they sure sound beautiful when he writes about them!

I guess I'm kind of curious about the relation that narratives have with ideology. I think that if we take ideology to be a set of ideas collected within a particular system, be it political, religious, bowling club, whatever, and if we compared this set to a narrative, I think the narrative would contain more than an ideology. Am I right to think this? For example, the foundation narrative of America as a second creation contains some of america's political ideology, some of frustrated European Emigrants ideology, some of monomanical capitalists ideology, etc. My hesitation to say this though is the fact that narratives seem to be a set of ideas that interpret reality, the same way ideology is a set of ideas that interpret reality. So my question is are the terms synonymous or not?

Chapter 8 of America as Second Creation really showed me a different side of railroads I had never seen before. As I have written about in previous blogs, the present day disgust with railroads in contrast to the early profound love seemed to be quite a contrast for me, but not surprising. However, I did not know about this narrative of a steady decline in the railroad’s likeability. Nye states that counter narratives started in 1820’s and it was all down hill from there. People complained about their condition, environmental degradation, accidents, and exploitation of labor. Nye states that after the Civil War the railroad continued on its downward spiral towards being a “calamity”. It appeared as though the railroads brought out the money-hungry worst in people. I must admit I was quite impressed by how much work the railroads still do in present day even though they are an “emblem of the past.” On a different note, in the beginning of chapter 8 Nye quotes Ralph Waldo Emerson statement that “Though in the flower of his transcendental revolt he had celebrated technology as a stimulus to creative vision, in his later career he emphasized more its tendency to debase the imagination.” Isn’t this why some musical artists don’t like music videos, and some people don’t like movies, because it robs us of using our imagination? Perhaps the old fashioned 1,000 words are worth more than the picture.

Chapter 8 takes a slightly different tone in regard to the railroad. No longer is it portrayed as the bearer of freedom and exploration, but as a threat and a societal impedance. People realized the toll the railroads would leave on the environment. Emerson Hough said it perfectly: “But steam has no soul.” Others described the blackness and the smoke. All new technologies suffer a backlash, but the railroad was probably one of the first ones to witness it. The railroad had changed things so quickly that many argued against it. For many, a conservative nature was the reason—there are always people that are happy with the present and do not wish to move forward. Others saw the lifeless and destructive nature of the railroad. The fallout didn’t just affect the environment, it affected people to the tune of “$44 a year for cleaning…” On top of all this, railroad companies were becoming incredibly powerful—enough such that they began having great control over the government, the economy, and the everyday family.

I was waiting for the drawbacks from westward expansion to come in chapter 7, sure enough here they are in chapter 8. I thought on page 179 this remark captured the sentiment of the reading for me, "The railroad did not bring free-market development and prosperity; it brought immediate economic disaster for some, fervish land speculation, and long-term economic control for all." The common man had had it with the railways. They were not viewed anymore as the path to westward homesteading. Instead the average family just viewed it as a money train for the richest of the rich. Plus they stole all the land. It seems like this is another example of a government relying too heavily on companies for economic growth and then becoming too dependent on them? This allowed a few companies to sieze power away from an American farmer trying to establish new homes and farms in the west. This sentiment is backed up by this statement on page 183 where Nye talked about [the "anti-monopoly" idea/painting that looked at trains as blocking settlements in the west, and fostering not democracy buy oligarchy.] I can definetely see both sides of the issue and difficult choices were made. I think in retrospect a lot of things could have been done differently with a better result.

Prior to this class I had never thought much about the history of the railroad. It was just there. Then the readings enticed and charmed me. There was something grand and exciting about it all last week. Now, with the new information, I am sickened. I found myself hating the railroad and then it occurred to me that it was not the railroad or trains that disgusted me, not the technology that created the problems. It was the greed and thoughtlessness of the corporate world. I wished I had never paid money to tour the James J Hill house. Suddenly I realized that the businessmen were only taking what our government was giving and turning it into a huge profit, albeit ruthlessly. The real problem seems to be the over generosity of the government with their land grants which encouraged many of the ensuing problems. The railroad eventually experienced its downfall, but the government is still creating problems.

Isn't it amazing how we create these giant machines or new technologies and in the beginning we love them. Then after time passes, there are so many unforseen problems that we create bigger ones trying to fix the orginal ones. The railroads carved their way through the land making transpotation better. However they displaced farmers and indians, and also killing animals and land (also people) along the way.

The government was so passive with the explorations of the railroad, they basically let them do whatever until the problem got so big that they got wind of it out east. however, it would have taken too much time to let the government build all of it. This tyrannical dilemma is still prevalent today.

I agreed with John when reading chapter 8 of Nye and the other article. Finally Nye gives us some “truth” of the matter in how the railroads really were, instead of just telling one side of the story (how wonderful they were). Railroads played an enormous impact on society as they brought about this ideology of guaranteed expansion. In reality the government, people, and the land were all controlled by the railroad system. Towns sprouted up along the line, and people moved west. As history played out, the prosperity and fate of these towns would rest on the presence and policy of the railroad system. One example of this would be the price or toll the railroad put on transporting goods in and out of certain areas. If the price was too expensive, people would have to go without and adapt. When the railroads systems became less of a means of transportations, towns became economically impoverished, while some towns totally vacated. Do you think this phenomenon happened in Minnesota- maybe the iron range? And what other technologies depend on the geography, and location of their usage?

This was an interesting chapter. I was intrigued by the way the railroad corporations manipulated the government and used their land grants to eventually gain control of virtually everything. It seems as though people of the time were so eager to build and progress that they didn't stop to think about the ramifications of giving land to the railroad corporations until it was too late. It was then that they figured out that, as Hnery George described, railroads would have been developed by the increase in settlement rather than the other way around, and with that railroad corporations would have had less power, and the narrative would have been different.

I was also impressed with the impact railroads had across classes. The laborers were stuck because of their dependence on the railroad corporations for their income and because of thier lack of roots that was due to the transient nature of their work. For these reasons and for the profit of those that followed them to get a piece of the laborers' wages, laborers partook in activities that were frightening to the middle class, who tried to show the laborers the errors of their ways. I wonder if the cycle of large corporations keeping laborers poor and middle-class members afraid began with the railroads.

I really enjoy that through reading America As Second Creation you get to see both sides of each subject. Chapter seven purely talked about how great the canals and railroads were for America. Upon reading that I thought back to when I was taught history and realized I was never told that it was that influential and that great. Now after reading chapter eight it is reassuring to know that I didnt miss something in school and that there were actual negative aspects about these advancements as well.
It is just crazy that the railroads made a life for some people and ruined it for others. It gave opportunities to some and gave false and misery to others. It is just so interesting how one advancement can enhance ones life so greatly while making others life miserable.

Up until this point, every passage we’ve read spoke highly of the railroad industry. I was ready to ask if anyone thought ill of the railroads until I finished reading chapter eight. I didn’t expect such a drastic change in point of view. Trains were frowned upon because of their blackness, economical corruption (monopolies, taking farmers’ land), noise, smell, and for many other reasons.

Was “Sounds” meant to be a sarcastic passage? At first I was literally interpreting phrases like “refreshing smells” which described the scents of the trains. I thought the author was weaving in the sounds of the train whistle with the songs of the birds to show their harmony. As I read on, I began to question if he was being serious or not - especially after reading chapter eight. Sometimes I don’t catch things like this…

I want to know more about the economics behind the trains. How much were the railroad companies really in control? How did they affect the government and citizens of the US?

Finally we get to hear about the aristocratic monopolization the trains brought to the western frontier. It is refreshing to finally see the counter-narrative to the whole technology innovation idea. With innovation and speed, trains also brought monopolization of travel, set prices, and downright bullying when it came to land.

Thoreau's reading was very interesting. After the first couple paragraphs, theres no way I would have thought him to be the one to see trains in such a passionate way! Surely someone who loves nature so deeply would never accept something so foreign to defile the forest. But, as Thorough showed, even he could see beauty in such a creation.

Okay, so I am not sure if I was just expecting something different out of the Thoreau story or maybe I was just not paying attention, but did he just make the bird sounds up in his mind? It was so beautiful the way he wrote about the trains. How with each sound, he could picture the stores and coutrymen getting their supplies from these storages on the trains. And then he started talking about birds and how he knew what time of day it was with each bird that chirped near his home. If I was reading it right, this was a beautiful story with such a depressing twist. I am guessing, but was the narrarator's yard taken away to pave more paths for trains? And if it is, what a dilemma. Natural beauty versus wanted supplies. Were people so consumed by the construction of more transporation that they could not save some space for Nature's beauty?

I think that this chapter provided a very interesting history of the railroads, and I definitely learned something important. I never knew before that the power of the “enormous” railroad resided in the hands of so few people. It is never a story I learned before reading this chapter. I also liked Emerson’s later take on the railroad as recounted on page 176; I thought it was rather comical. I think that does a pretty good job of putting the railroad in perspective for people. I was also surprised to hear that freight trains were still used to a large degree (more than trucks) in the 1990s.

I guess I agree with Shelcy, it is difficult to tell whether Thoreau appreciates the railroad or despises it. His comments vary from “I watch the passage of the morning cars with the same feeling that I do the rising of the sun” making the trains seem unbelievably beautiful every time it is seen. And then says things like, “I will not have my eyes put out and my ears spoiled by its smoke and steam and hissing”, which seems a bit like the railroad is a disturbance. I guess I just want to know whether Thoreau is supporting the railroad, or romantically showing us its disturbance to the natural world?

Chapter 8 reminded me of how over many generations of technological advancement there is always opposition to its creation. With technology comes a separation between the haves and the have not’s, as well as a fear of what else could follow this new form of technology. The unknown is a scary concept to many especially in the days when technology was just blossoming and people were not used to the concept of endless creation and advancement. When the steam boat came into play there was cynicism from all walks of hierarchy, “What sir, would make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I pray you excuse me. I have no time to listen to such nonsense.” (Napoleon Bonaparte Speaking to Robert Fulton about the concept of a steamboat), and when the railroad came there was the same cynics that had trepidations about its creation. Change and advancement takes away from comfort and stability. It has the ability to change your safe place, your established life and it is a gamble of if the changes will allow you to prevail or add an element of unease, noise, and pollution to your serene environment. Many of us value technology and what it has to offer, but it seems it always comes with a high sticker price as well as a high sacrificial cost on nature.

Like many of the others who have posted, I, too, was almost relieved to read about the drawbacks of the railroad. Perhaps it was due to the way chapter seven was written, or perhaps it was inherent to the story itself, but as I read his initial descriptions of railroad development, I couldn't help but think that something - something very important - was left out. Though Nye made this format of the book obvious in the introduction, I was still shocked to actually encounter the stark contrast between the simplified, idealized narrative and the amazing abundance of the elaborated, complicated counter-narratives. Nye did a wonderful job of building up my suspicions and then swiftly confirming them. But it made me incredibly sad to realize that even the initial, oversimplified narrative has been forgotten. I'm not even sure I was taught ANYTHING about railroad development in school. Before this, my knowledge about railroads was more of a vague feeling about a system that I understood as having fallen out of importance. Sure, it's still in use, but the technology just felt so peripheral, especially in light of the fancy new technologies that are shaping our society today. Because the technology was brushed aside, I felt as though it must be boring, unimportant. But this is obviously far from true. Do we simply lack the time (or incentive) to think about railroads because of our newer, faster machines? How terribly ironic it is that the impetus for our society's speed has led us to a place where we don't even have time to think about how we got here.

As for Thoreau, well, what even needs to be said to elaborate? I think my favorite part of "Sounds" comes near the beginning when he first discusses time. He sits, merely sits and watches, for hours or even days at a time. Nothing especially memorable happens, nor is he particularly productive. Yet he still writes, "I grew in those seasons like corn in the night, and they were far better than any work of the hands would have been. They were not time subtracted from my life, but so much over and above my usual allowance." He is suggesting to the society at the time, as well as to our own, that an obsession with production and advancement might be misguided, for those routes are not the only, or even the best, approaches to life. Still, can we completely detach ourselves from the idea that advancement (either at an individual or societal level) will make us happier? I certainly can't. But I suppose Thoreau isn't really suggesting that progress be neglected, rather that we take other options into consideration.

While reading Thoreau's excerpt on the sounds of his surroundings, I found it quite interesting how he refered to the sound of the trains bell as a melody. He stated, "This sound acquires a certain vibratory hum, as if the pine needles in the horizon were the strings of a harp which it swept." In this beautiful literary work, Thoreau explains how this invention of the train has added another element to nature. An element that he feels is complimentary to the breathtaking view of the second creation. Before this reading, I could not understand how the first settlers interpreted this land as a blank canvas. However, with Thoreau's clear and vivid explanation, I could begin to understand how they felt as though their inventions gaive this land of endless possibilities, an new tune that nature could also sing to.

We read in previous chapters of how America had its great forests and how settlers came in and recreated the land. Up to this point the book had talked about how the railroad was such a great way to explore the west and open up new lands for people to start a life. Up to this point the railroad brought nothing but great opportunities.
In this chapter we start to see the opposite side of the story. Some people who already had made a life outside of the big cities were opposed to this railroad coming through the rural communities. They thought the railroad was pressuring people to move out of the city and the rural parts were no longer the same with the new people coming in. The book also talked about how some towns were not helping finance the railroads, and therefore the railroad companies decided to take alternate routes to avoid these towns. Up until this point we had not read much about the opposition to the railroad. It seems though that most big things like the railroad always have people for and against it.

One line in Nye’s book described canal and railroad workers as drunk and disorderly with a reputation for being rough combative and profane. The middle class viewed these workers as a threat to the moral health of the towns they worked in or passed through. Special missionary societies were even formed to try to minister to the workers. I thought this was interesting that nothing much has changed since the 1800’s. Middle and upper class folks still look down on general laborers as threats to their moral health and will go out of their way to exclude them from their towns. In the town I went to high school in they would not allow trailer houses to be put anywhere in the city limits because low income housing of that sort attracted the “wrong type” of people. The railroads were largely built by poor immigrants to this country. If we were building the railroads now would people be concerned not just about the workers drinking problems but also their citizenship status. What if there were labor laws around then like there are now? Would the railroads have been built nearly as fast or would it have necessitated technological improvements in the process of building railroads that would have been made part of the railroad technology narrative?

After reading Nye’s Chapter 8, “The Route of Superior Desolation,” I was intrigued by the counter narrative regarding the railroad. The Frank Norris novel The Octopus described the railroad as “an amoral octopus seizing all within its grasp.” This description of the railroad reflected the notion of the counter narrative. However, many angry Americans during this period of time were far less against the railroad then against the corporate monopolies that controlled them. Why was the railroad accepted? Emerson Hough’s argument in his book The Way to the West depicts this reason, “once we depend upon it; now it roles us almost without argument.” The force and power of the railroad effected society in such a way that it was necessary to progress westward or at least to be forced to. The Westward movement was a resulted in the expansion of private ownership that controlled the process to which caused dramatic changes to the life of the individual American.

It was ridiculously interesting to hear Thoreau describe the train. Although I’m definitely not a great writer, I haven’t heard of anyone who could describe any of our technology today the way he portrayed the railroad. He seemed to idolize it. The other interesting thing I noticed is after describing how the railroad had arrived and how amazing it was, he seemed to only then realize how beautiful all of the sounds of nature were. It seems he took those sounds for granted, or was maybe unaware of them. Point is, in the silence that dropped on towns as the train was gone; he finally heard what, up to the time the tracks were laid, was just everyday noise. We’ve lost that in the city. Even if we took away all the cars, trains and airplanes for an hour, we would only hear a deafening silence.

Throeau’s passage reminded me of the simple pleasures in life that can be ruined by new advancements in technology. He writes about the pleasantness of his home and the area around it that calms him and brings peace to his life and the railroad cars that went by that alerted his perception of all the sounds that surrounded him. This is much like homes that are built near airports, where you are constantly hearing the roar of airplanes taking off or landing. Sound barrier walls are built all over highways that surround once quiet neighborhoods, but you still can not go outside and enjoy the quiet because the sound of cars going by is still in the distance. Nye touches on the fact that railroads build the economy of towns, but also drive out those who are not able to pay the land costs that come with new railway systems. While railroads benefited towns by bringing goods and allowing easier transportation, it drove out those who were not able to keep up with the rising costs of land.

The railroad industry reached a critical peak, then fell victim to critical critique. In much the same way, California's recent lawsuit against Big Auto Maker's reflects the hoopla of railway innovation, then the demise of its public image.

Well, finally we come to the conclusion that the railroads suck. Honestly, this chapter persuaded me in many ways to really hate and despise our foundation story. However, what we have seen and what I continue to see is not the technology that is the problem itself; it’s the corporations and the people. Much like the steamboats of England vs America. America only mandated that boilers be checked once every year, while at the same time England required one check per month. This resulted in many more lost lives and explosion on our steamboats. In every which way America is cocky, pompous and stubborn to the marrow. We cut cost and sacrifice life to satisfy our greedy and selfish wants. For shame. Despite my personal mental image of the American Expansion West, the towns and communities that sprung up as a result of the railroads were ones that involved “the palpable exploitation of men, women, and children, an increase in public drunkenness, the cultivation of immorality, and violation of the Christian Sabbath” (Nye, 185). Instead of investing the money in technology to reduce fatalities railroad owners pocketed the money. The railroad system was chaotic. They way our new country handled the situation was akin to that of a little kid who kept burning his hand on a hot stove. We were a defective baby spawned from Her Majesty, whose family must have laughed at us. “[In] the 1880s fatalities on American lines were 50 percent higher than in Britain, and the accident rate was twice as high” (Nye, 190).

Cool for this site --

[url=][/url]

Cool for this site --

[url=][/url]

Locate it. You`ll be happy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/search/google?keywords=site%3Aforumlivre.com%20biagra
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/search/google?keywords=site%3Aforumlivre.com%20biagra >buy generic biagra [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/search/google?keywords=site%3Aforumlivre.com%20biagra]buy generic biagra[/url]

Here some linkz,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/search/google?keywords=site%3Aforumlivre.com%20biagra
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/search/google?keywords=site%3Aforumlivre.com%20biagra >buy biagra [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/search/google?keywords=site%3Aforumlivre.com%20biagra]buy biagra[/url]