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October 05, 2004
Some energy
Joel updatd his blog. care to comment? I mean, I know i shouldn't let people get to me so easily. But if I did happen to run into Joel, I'd really like to figure out why he thinks the way he does. It's really hard for me to believe that he's really actually studied homosexuals. But, I'll let it go. It's not worth me getting upset.
Posted by piep0058 at October 5, 2004 11:26 PM | Homosexuality
Comments
I read some of Joels entries...I am not very happy with him either. I would like to run into to him as well.
Posted by: Brent at October 6, 2004 12:14 AM
Hey cut that Joel kid some slack.. he isnt smart enough to figure out that the way he was raised isnt 100% the right way.. otherwise wouldnt everyone be just like him? Seriously, you would think after 2000 years everyone would have converted to his ideology by now, sheesh! But alas, I dont really care about him so let's talk about more pressing issues.. since the roommate woke me up at 1:27am and I STILL cant get back to sleep, I'm left to ponder more serious issues.. I get back in town next Monday. We need to go to Tibby or Reddy. And, should I find out you went without me ..grrr.. I will be graceful about the whole thing. I'll be a total gentleman and let you decide which kneecap you'll miss the least! ;-> Hollah! :)
Posted by: Ken at October 6, 2004 03:09 AM
Brent, seriously, you can't reason with people. You're trying to be rational with an irrational person. It's nice that you have hope for people, but no hope exists for people like this from me.
Posted by: loverboy at October 6, 2004 09:55 AM
ok, I won't go to the tibby or reddy anytime soon. I have other pressing matters I need to deal with.
Posted by: loverboy at October 6, 2004 09:56 AM
Hay again. Joel here.
Look, I was probably a little too harsh in that last comment and I apologize.
I don't make a habit out of beating people down and that last little bit out of me doesn't really help, now did it?
Anyhow... I'm not all about gay stuff only. In fact, I deal with abortion, gun issues, and several other social issues concerning upcoming politics.
But... I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm sorry you're interpreting my work the way you are.
Joel.
Posted by: Joel Flake at October 6, 2004 02:48 PM
Oh well. It's hard for me Joel. You're attacking something that is at the core of my body, it's like saying all of my emotions don't exist. By the way, the people at NARTH are biased. Why should homosexuality be treated as a disease? My body is not harmed in any way by my desire for a relationship with a man. Have you ever spent time in an anti-homosexual clinic?
Posted by: loverboy at October 6, 2004 03:10 PM
Well, I'm going to keep this non-personal since you've taken your position, but I'd suggest you check out:
http://www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf
Again - I'm not delibarately trying to attack you, just to warn.
Posted by: Joel Flake at October 6, 2004 04:18 PM
Warn for what?
Posted by: loverboy at October 6, 2004 05:00 PM
I'm sorry - I thought it was obvious.
Don't take any of this the wrong way, because I'm about to be blunt.
That URL I gave is a link to PDF file that is a medical doctor's opinion about the risks of homosexual activity. I didn't give that to you just as a "See, I told you so" kind of thing. I gave it to you because I genuinely thought you need to know what is in it.
Again, please don't take this the wrong way.
Posted by: Joel Flake at October 6, 2004 07:41 PM
So...you're saying that because a person is homosexual, it makes him more at risk for sexual diseases etc. That is like saying that since a person is black he must live in the ghetto.
I'll interpret what you said another way. You're worried that I might have sex with an HIV+ male and get AIDS. Ok, I'm worried about that too. Thanks for your concern. Somehow, I didn't see how anything in that study pertains to me. But the chance of me having sex at all like that is...well...the same as you (Joel) voting for Kerry. (Not that I'm going to have butt sex if you vote for Kerry.) Besides, anal sex has nothing to do with homosexuality. I know plenty of homosexuals who do not practice it. Why don't you finger yourself, you might like it. I know I don't like fingering myself, that's just nasty.
Homosexuality is not a disease that needs curing. True, there are some people out there that are, well, not exactly in committed relationships. However, just because a study says homosexuals cannot have long term partners does not mean that it is impossible. That's a horrible generalization to make. It does not prove that homosexuality causes people to become more promiscuous. Homosexual families have existed for centuries. I hope to find someone that will make me happy and I can make happy for the rest of my life.
It would be great to live in a society that does not recognize homosexuality as being something to hide or something seen as less than heterosexuality. But, oh well. I have faith that, in time, people will be more accepting.
You don't have to comment on this if you don't want. Personally I'm really tired of discussing this.
Posted by: loverboy at October 6, 2004 11:07 PM
That's not at all like your race comparison. Homosexuality is a behavior. Race is not. You make the disproven argument that sexuality is an inherant part of an individual. Psychological studies have concluded that no more than 16% of homosexuality can be due to genetics. I can assure you that race is more concrete.
Now, I happen to know Joel and he has no malicious intentions in anything he writes. The only "horrible generalization" here is that you assume that he must hate you because he disagrees with you. He, as do I, simply wants to educate those who engage in various immoral behaviors about the consequences of their actions. If you find this offensive, you may ignore it and continue to seek happiness in your own way. But to belittle and try to silence somebody for speaking his or her mind is blatantly intolerant.
It's too bad you so quickly grew tired of discussing something that is "at the core of [your] body." Once the facts start coming to the surface is when things really get interesting. I would like to continue to debate this, because I know SFV has a lot of objective research on this issue, and I'd be interested to hear what objective research you can provide. Either here or over at the SFV site will do.
Posted by: ADG at October 6, 2004 11:37 PM
Whatever dude. I can't keep arguing with someone when I don't expect to make any progress.
Posted by: loverboy at October 7, 2004 02:13 AM
I don't think Joel hates me. I think he just doesn't understand. His comments, though, aren't exactly nice. But it's late, and sometimes, you just have to let things go. I can't fight all the time, even with things that are at the core of my body. But, I know i can change things, one person at a time. I don't think I'll get around to Joel anytime soon. But I know there are other people out there that I can reach.
Perhaps I don't like to judge people.
Research? These studies are not research. They don't account my experiences or my desires or my thoughts. Why should I believe something that says my feelings don't exist? Rene Descartes said it best, "I think, therefore I am." What can we really be sure of? A Michael Moore Documentary? Psychological evidence saying homosexuality is just 16% genetic? I have to go with my feelings.
Posted by: loverboy at October 7, 2004 02:24 AM
Well, I'm not going to keep running around here, but it's just about butt sex either.
And remember - feelings change. Facts do not.
Posted by: Joel Flake at October 7, 2004 06:47 AM
Well...at least we agree on one thing.
Posted by: loverboy at October 7, 2004 09:17 AM
"He, as do I, simply wants to educate those who engage in various immoral behaviors about the consequences of their actions."
IMMORAL BEHAVIORS?? WHAT THE HELL?!?!? Why do you keep referring us to these stupid websites? I will be honest…I have not once clicked on those stupid links. I believe that the so-called research that you are referring us to is a total crock of crap. You have no idea on how we feel about the same sex and something that someone says in some stupid article is not going to change how I feel about another guy. Ok...I do not like to argue, but this is getting out of control. All we are trying to say is that you really do not understand and what you do say is very hurtful. These people that you refer to as performing in “immoral behaviors” are humans. To me, an organization that is informing people about family values should also be recognizing all people, regardless of sexual orientation, as your brother, sister, mother, or father…NOT discriminating or saying what they do is immoral.
Posted by: Brent at October 9, 2004 05:15 PM
Just be nice!!! Can't we all just get along????
Posted by: Brent at October 9, 2004 05:26 PM
I recommend that people read and post comments on Joel Flake's blog. He's amazing. Not in a good way.
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/flak0013/randomthoughts/
Posted by: SixFootPole at October 29, 2004 12:01 AM
sixfootpole is a brave one.
Posted by: loverboy at October 29, 2004 01:19 AM
I hear from the gay rights crowd lots of comparisons with the civil rights movement as it pertains to racial issues. The Christian conservative crowd invariably responds that homosexuality is a behavior, while race, obviously, is not. Was it Joel above that said 16% of gayness is genetically attributable? I don't even know what that means. Does that mean that only 16% of gay people are for real. Or that 84% of gay behavior is just for show. I thought there was only a percent or two of genetic variation to explain all of the variation in the entire human population. Seriously, I suggest Joel take a real class in genetics so he knows whence he speaks. Whatever. I'm just an ignorant straight guy who tries to look at things fairly, so I have a question that's been nagging me for awhile. Who gives a shit if homosexuality is behavior or biology? I have lots of hobbies and interests that have zero to do with genetics. Does that mean I should give them up because somebody else doesn't share my level of interest? Here's another example: Religion is one of the most important CHOICES most people make in their lives. Can we justify religious discrimination on the grounds that religion is a choice? After all, those Jehovah's Witnesses could all become Evangelical Lutherans if they don't like the way society treats them.
I can conclude only one thing from the "it's a choice" arguments that the Christian right likes to use. The people who make this argument have obviously looked their own homosexual desires in the eye and have chosen to act straight. For me, I've never seriously questioned my hetero tendencies. As a result, I've never seen the need to question why others have homo desires.
Posted by: Straight Jim at October 31, 2004 11:26 AM
Sorry Joel, it was ADG with the 16% genetic quote. ADG is the one who needs the genetics class, I guess. I just reread that post from ADG and now I realize just how ridiculous it really is. Here are a series of quotes from above, followed by my questions.
"Psychological studies have concluded that no more than 16% of homosexuality can be due to genetics."
Since when are psychologists experts in genetics? Seems to me only a qualified geneticist is qualified to count genes and determine what function each gene serves. And geneticists still have plenty of trouble determining the full functions of most of our genes. The human genome was only mapped out just recently. There is lots of work on it left to do to iron out the details.
"SFV has a lot of objective research on this issue, and I'd be interested to hear what objective research you can provide."
SFV, as the acronym indicates, is a family values organization, which is a fine type of organization, if that's your thing. Why, then, does SFV pretend to be a scientific authority? Joel Flake, Executive Officer of SFV ahs apparently done the bulk of the objective research for SFV. His sources are NARTH, an organization who, I assume, Joel Flake already agreed with, even before he read their info. The Bell and Weinberg report was published in 1978 (I had to google it). "Objective research" requires, I hate to say it, objective research. When you cite only two sources, one of which has a clear political agenda, and the other is more than 25 years old, you are not doing objective research. You are cherry picking your intelligence sources, a technique in which conservative Christians have infamously developed a certain competency recently. As for research on homosexuality, it would be hard to cite any sources. The reason is that the federal government will not consider funding requests from researchers in this field The federal government's official or unofficial policy, apparently, is that homosexuality does not exist. Therefore, NSF or NIH proposals to fund research on the topic are relegated to the same bins where they place the requests for funding for UFO research.
Posted by: Straight Jim at October 31, 2004 11:50 AM
thanks Jim. sometimes i get caught up in other people's discourse that i forget the main goals sometimes. i certainly have never cared where homosexuality comes from.
but when i start talking about rights with these guys they bring it up. they see it as a bad thing that Jesus hates (because Jesus has actually talked to them).
it tires me because they can't listen to reason. they're too concerned with judging people or saving people.
if you were a homo i'd give you a kiss. haha! anyhow, thanks for the nice comment.
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