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February 10, 2007
My synopsis of the situation
What a dumb hobby for me to pick. Stadiums in Minnesota. Just plain stupid on my part. Nothing but pain and suffering. I guess as a Vikings fan I am kind of used to it though. And do any of us doubt that this is just the beginning of the problems with building the new Twins ballpark? I almost guarantee that when they start digging, wherever it is, they'll find the ruins of the lost city of El Dorado or they'll find a Stargate that will transport people back to an ancient Egyptian civilization. All construction will stop. It is inevitable. When Kurt Russell shows up don't say I didn't warn you.
First of all, thanks to everyone that have written in to this site. Some really good ideas and thoughts have been posted. Based on these comments, and based on what I am reading at other sites like Minnescraper.com and Battle Your Tail Off I think there are some definite themes emerging.
For example, there is an overall dislike (maybe even despising) of Land Partners II that seems to be pervading the discussion. A couple of weeks ago I wrote in these very pages that if this deal falls through Land Partners II will take the brunt of the blame whether that blame is justified or not. This seems to be proving true. I am seeing statements like "Can we tar and feather Land Partners II yet?" and "Eminent domain was made for ***holes like these. I hope they choke on what they get....bastards!!" and "So in conclusion, it sounds as if LPII, the owners of the land, are a bunch of ****ing douche bags."
Of course, this disgust with LPII has reached its climax with a column by Patrick Reusse today which called the land "Bruce's ditch" (a reference to Land Partners II bigwig Bruce Lambrecht) and questioned Lambrecht's motives in switching sides to be in favor of the NorthStar line when he found out it would go through his land. Then there were these harsh words:
Officials of the Twins and Hennepin County now have been reminded what can happen when you wiggle into a sleeping bag with a hypocrite.
I don't know if Land Partners II cares what Reusse thinks ("sticks and stones" and all that) but I can't believe that this overall sense of disgust from the Minnesota public isn't having some kind of an impact on them. No one likes to be disliked so intensely.
The second theme to emerge from what I am reading and hearing is that most people think Hennepin County should bite the bullet and condemn the land. Again, for those of you just joining us, there is a fear that if Hennepin County condemns the land and goes through the eminent domain process it will be decided that the land is worth more than they have. Reusse mentions that some people think LPII is asking for something in the $50 million range, and that is simply an outrageous amount of money.
This theme is best exemplified by statements by freealonzo, jlichty, and David Howe, three readers of this blog. Freealonzo writes:
The fact is that the County will be able to gain control of the land through the Quick Take process. In fact I think LPII (Land Owners) has even agreed to this. That's the key. The County/Twins can go forward with design, move dirt around, put out bids for construction, etc. During all this somewhere in the bowels of the court system the eminent domain process is going through the meat grinder. Twelve months from now we will have a ballpark design, perhaps a ballpark name, City/County approvals are in place, permits issued, infrastructure being built, contracts being let, sales tax revenues being collected, and the eminent domain hearing will end. Either the County has enough $$$ or it doesn't. If it doesn't THEN there is consternation. Either we have to hit up the Twins for more land acquisition costs or go back to the legislature.
Well said. We'll come back to a couple of points in there later. Jlichty writes:
The eminent domain proceedings will favor the County and will screw the landowner as such proceedings nearly universally do. Land Partners does not hold the card here - and they are at the mercy of the court system, that is why they are posturing this way ... The county will get the land without the land swap ...
I absolutely agree with this. One only needs to say the name "Harry Crump" to remember that judges will usually side with the public good in disputes like this. It won't take much for the County to be able to prove that the land isn't worth near $50 million. We'll come back to this later, too.
Finally, David Howe wraps it up by saying:
I think the county is being overy cautious about the eminant domain proceedings. This is why eminant domain exists. As others have pointed out, the outcomes tend to favor the government, not the private citizen. If the ruling did come in over the $13 million, it would probably be by a small amount, not 'tens of millions' that they are currently apart in the negotiations.If they are so concerned about what an extra $5-10 million for the land might do to the rest of the infrustructure, why don't they just sit down with the Twins and get them to agree to cover whatever the difference is in writing?
Again, the court proceedings will probably favor the County and the difference in land value that the County is so afraid of will probably be a relatively small amount.
David and Freealonzo both also mention the third theme that is emerging. Where are the Twins in all of this? Why can't they come forward and pick up the rest of the tab? Why not indeed. I must admit that their silence is making me a little angry. Here we have a number of politicians that have literally put their careers on the line for them (especially Mike Opat) and they are content to remain silent and/or put the blame on the land owners. This is shameful.
We now turn to the words of Mike Opat as captured by our own Vince and a discussion on Battle Your Tail Off. According to these sources, Mike Opat had some very interesting things to say on KFAN yesterday afternoon. Accoring to Opat the land has been appraised at $8 million and the County is offering $13.35. Again, with those two figures I can't see a judge approving the sale for much more than that. Opat also mentioned that the land owners are not negotiating in good faith and it sounds like they have not even made the County a counter-offer. This definitely suggests that the numbers are way off. Opat also mentioned that he thought if they did have to go back to the legislature they may be able to get an amendment without opening the bill up to the entire floor again. I'm not sure how this is possible, but it sounds good to me! Finally, and most importantly, Opat said that they have been talking with the Twins and it sounds like they are open to contribute more and/or the possibility of a new site.
This is very, very important. The Twins need to step up here. If the Twins let this deal fall through, if they thumb their noses at hundreds of millions of dollars in public money over a few extra million to pay for the land they will have no one to blame but themselves. If I read Opat's statements correctly and the Twins are willing to possibly make up the difference, then let's proceed with the condemnation process and let the chips fall where they may.
Someone has mentioned on another site, I can't remember where, that this may all just be a ploy to get the Twins to contribute more. Whatever the case, whether the County decides to proceed with the Rapid Park site condemnation or the County decides to pick a different site, it is obvious to me that the Twins will need to step up to the plate.
Personally, I can also see this all as a ploy to get this dispute onto the public airwaves. The more people that hear about this mess and discuss it, the more likely that a future judge or jury will hear about it and make the right decision in a future eminent domain hearing. Maybe "ploy" is the wrong word, but I think it will definitely have that effect.
Anyway, to wrap this up, I see three themes: a strong dislike of Land Partners II, a feeling that the condemnation process will most likely favor the county, and a feeling that the Twins could and should easily make up the difference. It is my hope that Land Partners II decides to take the money and run, but if a condemnation process is necessary I think there are ample reasons to believe the County will come out on top. I think they should do the "quick take" and start digging. What about you?
Posted by snackeru at February 10, 2007 10:52 AM
Comments
I apologize for being longwinded. I have to say that I agree with two of the issues you've stated and I'm on the fence for the third.
1. I do have a strong dislike with Land Partners II right now. I think they're greedy and asking for too much. The fact that there haven't been any negotiations for awhile, that they haven't even given a counteroffer, and that they seem to believe they deserve the offer they got in 2004 here in 2007 shows me they aren't in touch with reality at the moment. Things have changed over the last 3 years in regards to cost and demand. You can't expect them to be same.
2. I also agree that the Twins could and probably should cover the difference. Carl's got the money to do so. I think there are two different situations here.
A. LPII finds out the Twins will cover the difference between their asking price and what Hennepin County offers. LPII decides they'll keep asking for that exorbitant amount (if it's really the $50mil that Reusse mentions). In my opinion, LPII doesn't deserve that amount and HC and the Twins probably agree with that assessment. The Twins should be free to look elsewhere if in fact this occurs and LPII should be taken to the woodshed.
B. Hennepin County's responsibility with this legislation was that they acquire the land and the Twins weren't supposed to deal with it. I think with this type of issue, this is where the Twins SHOULD be involved. I can understand the Twins saying, "You were supposed to get the land. It wasn't our responsibility," BUT when the issue involves the land the Twins need downtown to build a stadium or it might go up in smoke, you'd think they'd be a little more urgent in offering some type of visible public support to Hennepin County.
3. The issue of condemnation favoring the county. I don't have any experience except for what I've read about involving other eminent domain issues. With all the difficulty that we've gone through in building something like this in Minnesota over the last 15 years, I wouldn't be surprised to see another roadblock pop up. While I hope the county would be favored and I believe they should be, I could also see something happen where we get screwed.
I'm a huge baseball fan. I've supported this stadium from the start and I'm not about to stop, but to say I'm not frustrated like Shane's said as well would be a lie. Here's hoping the issues can be dealt with quickly and we have baseball in downtown MPLS in 2010.
Posted by: Mylometer at February 10, 2007 01:45 PM
these quotes on espn.com today from rich pogin really hock me off. it's almost as if these people were in kahoots with stadium oppoenents and this is the ending act of the play. he keeps harping that the legislation is flawed, but the flaw IS NOT the fault of the county and the twins and i think mr pogin realizes that. people are name calling out of frustration and the fact that a move back to the legislature is fraught with delay and problems. the capped amount shold be enough to buy the land. they have a different reality of the downtown land market, particularly that site's value as a residential site.
"Let's just admit that it doesn't work and that we don't have a relationship and stop calling each other names," said Rich Pogin, who represents Land Partners II, one of the owners.
"I understand their problem. The legislation doesn't work, and in the political world of today, people don't get up and say we made a mistake," Pogin said.
"If you've got a real limited amount to spend, there really isn't much to negotiate over," he said.
and so it goes....sigh
and i agree, condemn and start digging and damn the torpedoes!
Posted by: mullen at February 10, 2007 03:06 PM
Mylometer, thanks for the comment and don't apologize for being long-winded! Obviously I have that problem myself. I agree the question of condemnation is the toughest one. It is easy for me to say "pull the trigger" but I really don't have the whole story.
I think it also bears mentioning that LPII wants the condemnation process. Obviously they think they will get more out of that process than by just agreeing to the county's offer. I say we take a chance and find out.
And mullen, thanks for the comment regarding the ESPN article. For those of you interested, it can be found at:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?num=0&id=2760757
Posted by: Shane at February 10, 2007 03:11 PM
Shane - I called into KSTP 1500 and was on with Pat Ruesse this morning. I even mentioned your blog (not by name, however) and brought up some of the Pogin quotes that you have added from time to time. I told them about the hypocritical Twinsville web site, and they accessed it and read some of the information from the site on air.
I agree with with Ruesse 100% when he states that the land owners will look bad until they let the public knows thier asking price. He states that they have been offered $13.5 million by Hennepin County for their "ditch," which is public knowledge. If the public finds out that Land Partners II are actually asking $15 million and Hennepin County has turned them down, we know they are getting low-balled. However, if we find out they are asking for $30, $40 or %50 million for land currently valued at $8 million, this would (and I quote Ruesse) "expose them as no-good, despicable jack-asses." Amen to that. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks.
Posted by: Jeff T. at February 10, 2007 03:47 PM
I find it interesting that one thing that has not been mentioned in this ordeal is Land Partners II's alternate development plans if there is no ballpark at the Park Rapids site. If you recall they said that they would build condos (or other development) there regardless of whether a ballpark gets built.
If I'm the county, my strategy would be to point out that Land Partners II would probably make more money on condos overlooking a new ballpark than they would with a bunch of additional condos occupying the site on which the ballpark would otherwise be located. Additionally, Land Partners II should take note of the amazing glut of new condos downtown. I think it is pretty clear that the market has reached a saturation point (particularly, when coupled with the recent decline in the housing market).
In my mind, the only way to get a premium on new condos would be with some unique quality, and for Land Partners II, that gimmick would be the new ballpark. Without the new ballpark, I think they would have trouble getting those condos sold (particularly if there were twice as many due to building on the location that otherwise would have been the ballpark).
With a Twins ballpark nearby, Land Partners II would probably make more money on fewer condos and have the additional $13.5 million to boot. It seems like such a no brainer for Land Partners II but, instead, they have decided to hold out while being crucified in the press. My advice to them is "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" or they might get kicked in the tail. If the ballpark doesn't get built, the negative PR is going to make it even more difficult to find takers for their cookie-cutter condos.
Posted by: Andrew N. at February 10, 2007 04:40 PM
bingo! how much do they want? it's the public's money, we have a right to know. that pat reusse column was a classic. very frontal writing, but these people played the system to their benefit, it's not criminal but it is unethical. but i guess ethics and credibility are no big deal when you can change your position on commuter rail because you stand to gain monetarily if it's built. it's a position he once held so strongly he formed a group to fight it.
Posted by: mullen at February 10, 2007 04:46 PM
I certainly echo the feelings of those who are pissed at LP II. While I don't know anything about them, they are clearly out to make every buck they can on this deal.
Regarding the county, Shane I think you make a good point. This is not the last problem that will occur before the stadium is done. Not by a long shot. For that reason, I'm a little irritated at the county officials for being so willing to bail at the first sign of trouble. Even if the land could be gotten for the current offer, there's no guarantee the $90 million cap on infrustucture won't cause the county to have to go back to the legislature to have it raised at some point. Stadiums typically have cost over-runs, so its silly to be in a panic over a 'possible' over-run that may not even occur and will likely only be a few million if it does. You have to have some guts here and start building.
I also agree that the Twins need to step up and make this happen. If they really are sitting silently, then I'm angry too. However, we don't know that they aren't working behind the scenes. I certainly hope they are.
Posted by: David Howe at February 10, 2007 09:42 PM
I read somewhere, can't remember where, I think it was the Strib...The majority of the land owners are based in Houston, TX...Well, at a national level we know many Houstonians have no conscience, nor would they give a rat's big booty about the Twins and their fans.
Just keep that in mind.
Posted by: kevin in az at February 10, 2007 10:06 PM
Here is an early look at Syd's Sunday column. He hammers land owner Bruce Lambrecht pretty good:
"Bruce Lambrecht and his 100 stockholders who own the land near Target Center that the Legislature specified as the site for the new Twins baseball park hired Hines, a company based in Houston, to handle the negotiations for the site with the Hennepin County. Those talks have hit a wall, threatening to stall construction.
Lambrecht, who was jumping up and down for joy when his land was specified for the ballpark and now is looking for blood, is hiding behind the skirts of Hines and is trying to present himself as Mr. Nice Guy -- which he isn't.
You would think that Hines, the largest private property owner in downtown Minneapolis, would see the advantage of having a ballpark in its own neighborhood to spark development, but apparently not. The company is close to forcing Hennepin County to look for another site.
No doubt Hines is gambling that the Pohlads, who own the Twins, are so eager to get that ballpark built that they will pay what the owners are demanding -- reportedly in excess of $50 million -- and not the $13.5 million at which it has been appraised.
I'm told that this will not happen. The Pohlads have agreed to contribute $100 million to the entire project. That is the limit.
Had the new Guthrie Theater been built where it should have been, adjacent to the Shubert Theater on Hennepin Avenue, the choice site on the river for the ballpark would have been available.
So the stadium problem that looked like it was two-thirds settled when the Legislature voted to back projects for the Gophers and Twins last year remains unsolved."
Posted by: Jeff T. at February 10, 2007 10:36 PM
LP II are in partnership with Hines Interests, which is headquartered in Houston, regarding the rapid park parcel. Maybe that's where you heard of the Houston connection.
Posted by: mullen at February 10, 2007 11:00 PM
Yes that's exactly it....I heard that Hines owns a lot of land in and around DT Mpls...you would think it would be in their best interest for the stadium to be there to keep the value high or even raise the value of their neighboring properties.
Posted by: kevin in az at February 11, 2007 01:40 AM
I would expect the Twins to bridge the gap if the difference was $10 million or less. It appears the gap is much bigger than that. According to Sid's column today (Sunday) the Twins don't plan on budging from their $100 million committment. That is disheartening. They're getting a huge public contribution, yet they would refuse to pay the difference, even if it were a small one.
I wouldn't put it past Mr. Pohlad to play that game. He's made plenty of mistakes the last ten years in his ballpark pursuit (North Carolina threat and the $100 million loan disguised as a contribution, to name a couple). I would think at this point he'd be willing to buck up and get this thing done once and for all.
Posted by: Bruce at February 11, 2007 02:02 AM
LPII should be taking a lot of heat, as it's all deserved. They are clearly being greedy and not even negotiating.
But both sides are to blame for not having a solid handshake agreement on price before this legislation was finalized. Though it sounds like a handshake agreement probably wouldn't mean anything to these LPII guys anyway.
Posted by: mlb2131 at February 11, 2007 12:19 PM
Anyone read Nick Coleman's column today? I usually can't eat for about 24 hours after I read his stuff. Here it is:
http://www.startribune.com/357/story/993536.html
Posted by: Jeff T. at February 11, 2007 12:37 PM
hahaha...jokes on us! i agree with Shane, what a stupid interest i've gotten myself attached to living in a place with so much cynicism and finger pointing. i guess it just comes from a lifelong love for the game of baseball, played at its highest level. trips with my dad to the old met, biking out there on summer afternoons with my neigbhorhood friends from our south minneapolis homes. then as i grew older taking road trips to chicago, milwaukee and east coast baseball meccas because we wanted an authentic experience, under the blue skies or moonlit night. it's a love of the game that makes me want to have my team, our team, the minnesota twins, flourish and prosper, because baseball is such a bonding game, a great game. and for that to happen this region needs a new place for our team to play. if the twins left the state life would go on, but a great piece of summer life for generations would be lost.
Posted by: mullen at February 11, 2007 01:18 PM
I hate to say it put after reading Soucheray's column today where he got Mayor Coleman to admit to liking the Sears/Rice St. location in St. Paul for a ballpark, I would be willing to wait til 2012 for that ballpark. At least I could have another ballpark celebration party at Summit and I guarentee Bruce from Land Partners won't be at this one.
-Jiminstpaul
Posted by: Jiminstpaul at February 11, 2007 04:18 PM
i just knew it was a matter of time before nick coleman reared his ugly face to give us his insight....add him to my reasons of why my homestate has become pathetic.
Posted by: kevin in az at February 11, 2007 05:01 PM
there has been too much water under the bridge to open up the possibility of going back to square one with a new bill at the legislature. we all cheered when a bill finally, and i mean, finally, passed by the barest of margins at the legislature last spring. all the grunt work, after ten years, has been done, we were supposedly just weeks away from turning dirt. it's too late for people who have romantic notions of going through site selection all over again and rewriting history. it's henn. county or not. it has to get done. condemn and dig! i know i sound like a crazed howard dean here, but we can't go back ten years. the costs only increase also, and we're not talking monopoly here.
Posted by: mullen at February 11, 2007 05:22 PM
I agree with you Mullen. It's either the current site in Hennipen county, or a casino-funded stadium in Vegas. The whole talk of St. Paul, Anoka or anything else is ridiculous.
Posted by: David Howe at February 11, 2007 10:13 PM
