May 1, 2007
I've just been informed that the Hennepin Board of Commissioners are about to meet where they almost certainly will vote to go forward with the "quick take" of the Rapid Park site.
Details should be forthcoming as the afternoon progresses.
So, all the worrying and gnashing of teeth is almost over. Of course, new worries will present themselves as the construction commences (I think someone has suggested the construction crew will almost certainly find an ancient Native American burial site) but we'll deal with those as they come up.
All I can say is I am relieved. Again, let's wait until the news makes it official, but I am happy.
More details ... the press relase:
HENNEPIN COUNTY BOARD VOTES TO EFFECTUATE QUICK-TAKE OF RAPID PARK SITE FOR NEW TWINS BALLPARK
Hennepin County will today effectuate a "quick-take" of the 8-acre Rapid Park site for the ballpark project and take title to the land, after the Board of Commissioners voted to deposit $13.755 million into a court escrow account.
The deposit will complete the County's major land acquisitions for the ballpark project.
"I am very pleased we are able to move ahead on acquiring this parcel," said Hennepin County Commissioner Mike Opat. "The process of purchasing this land has been too difficult and taken too long. But now we can finally begin preparing the site to construct one of the best urban ballparks in America."
The quick-take action came after the Minnesota Twins and Burlington Northern Santa Fe reached agreement on insurance and indemnification concerns for the construction and operation of the ballpark.
The County and BNSF have also reached an understanding on the financial terms for purchasing BNSF property interests.
"To this point, the County could not reach a negotiated sale with the landowners and avoid condemnation proceedings," Opat said. "With today's action, the County and the Twins will energetically engage in the condemnation process, while always leaving open the possibility that the landowners will reconsider their position and begin serious negotiations."
County Board Resolution 07-184, enacted on April 10, 2007, authorized the quick-take as soon as the County was assured that the Twins and BNSF reached agreement. The Twins have also agreed to provide an additional amount — above their $130 million payment for the ballpark — to assist in land acquisition and infrastructure. The Board voted today specifically to authorize the disbursement of $13.755 million, the value of the Rapid Park site according to a certified appraisal obtained by the County.
The condemnation action, cited as County of Hennepin v. Land Partners II, LLLP, et al., (Court File No. 27-CV-06-19732), began in 2006 under Judge Stephen Aldrich. Three court-appointed condemnation commissioners will appraise the Rapid Park site and recommend a sale price.
Posted by snackeru at May 1, 2007 1:39 PM
"I've just been informed that the Hennepin Board of Commissioners are about to meet where they almost certainly will vote to go forward with the "quick take" of the Rapid Park site."
"All I can say is I am relieved. Again, let's wait until the news makes it official, but I am happy."
Yeah..... me too - I'm sooooooo happy; I just pissed my pants!
Posted by: The Pacifier at May 1, 2007 2:06 PM
Thanks for the update Shane. That was me suggesting that an Indian buriel ground would be found. Chief Hiawatha's bones specifically. Let's hope not!
Posted by: Jeff T. at May 1, 2007 2:06 PM
grand conspiracies are looming
unnamed and nonexistent political entities are telling the voices in my head that it's still doomed!!! /anti stadium nutjorbs
good news, good news!
Posted by: CJ at May 1, 2007 2:39 PM
What's a "nutjorb?"
This thing will die a slow and agonizing (for some) death (figuratively speaking), as all illconceived and tragic abuse of powers should. And so will it's complicitous evil doers.
....or so I've heard.
Posted by: STM at May 1, 2007 2:47 PM
it's a way of saying nutjob... based on an internet cartoon at homestarrunner.com
Posted by: CJ at May 1, 2007 3:10 PM
I'm not quite as happy as Pacifier, but I'm pretty damn happy right now.
Posted by: Snyder at May 1, 2007 3:44 PM
"Go Twins" as in "Go Away"
I have seen the light! I am now 100% pro public financed stadiums. You can't argue with logic. That is simply the state of pro sports today. AND using Oputz's er, I mean Mr. Opats logic, 81 dates for the Twins translated into $390 million. The remaining 120+ dates that will be looking for a home (the Metro dome was booked for 200 dates last year) should be worth $585 million dollars! PLUS the Twins can move indoors (if need be) in April and September!
Let's get 'er done, Mr. Opat. Its only another nickle on 20 bucks! WE NEED A NEW RETRACTABLE ROOF STADIUM AND IT NEEDS TO BE IN HENNEPIN COUNTY!
Posted by: STM at May 1, 2007 3:55 PM
Here you go, STM:
Posted by: Snyder at May 1, 2007 4:08 PM
No, I'm serious - I want this too.
Get it done.
Posted by: STM at May 1, 2007 4:12 PM
Thanks for the updates shane
a grin that can be seen from space!
Posted by: CJ at May 1, 2007 4:57 PM
I thought Pohlad had agreed to pay the BNSF????
So taxpayers got ripped again because Hennepin County Commissioners are too cozy with the wrong people on this?
Thank God local journalists are FINALLY starting to ask the right questions. This should make for good scandal reading in a few months.
Posted by: lane at May 1, 2007 6:17 PM
I have now accepted the fact that I am Mr. Irrelevant. Enjoy your stadium drivel. Remember, you get the government that you deserve.
Posted by: STM at May 1, 2007 7:56 PM
Bet some pro stadium web site owners get deposed in the near future.............
Posted by: lane at May 1, 2007 8:18 PM
Your anonymous threat is quite pathetic. If you are going to threaten me at least have the decency and guts to stand up for yourself. Do you think I'm going to bite, or worse yet, threaten you? No, I can guarantee you only anti-stadium folk stoop to that level.
So, I'm going to be deposed? First of all I seriously doubt it, and secondly for what? Stating an opinion that you don't agree with? Wow.
I have nothing to hide. I am just overwhelmed by how pathetic you are.
Posted by: Shane at May 1, 2007 8:28 PM
I think some journalist(s) are going to be asking a lot of people a lot of questions in a few months; especially people that have high profiles on an issue that will be burning up hundreds of millions of taxpayer money that largely benefits a single family.
The money being spent & tossed around is going to attract attention like flies to a chunk of rotten meat; especially with such a large vocal anti-stadium contingency & attorneys just itching for the fight.
Posted by: lane at May 1, 2007 8:47 PM
Another solid step forward.
Too bad HC didn't also vote to effectuate a quick take on STM, mary, Koko, and now Lane's computers!
Posted by: tato at May 1, 2007 8:48 PM
In the classic words of Boz Scaggs:
"Why can't you just get it through your head, it's over, it's over now."
Posted by: freealonzo at May 1, 2007 8:51 PM
So some journalist(s) are going to be contacting me? Whoa! How frightening. Please send them my way. Once they start asking me questions they'll realize what an idiot you are.
Posted by: Shane at May 1, 2007 8:59 PM
Look out Shane, 'the evil media' is going to attack you....the idea that this has been a bunch of secret dealings is so ridiculous. This process couldn't have been any more public and transparent for the last decade.
Lord knows the Strib, Pioneer Press and local TV stations have covered this through the whole process. So I wonder who the mysterious 'local media' are that are just now getting around to asking the right quesions? I guess it's those reporters for the Bloomington Jefferson High School paper I'd fear if I were you Shane.
I think we can finally say this is over. Even STM has conceeded and anonymous posters have resorted to making pathetic vague threats against the site owner. I think that means they give up. 'Mission Accomplished.'
Posted by: D Howe at May 1, 2007 9:09 PM
A big thanks to Shane for everything he's done for the cause. I honestly don't know if the ballpark would have happened without Shane's hard work. It's still hard to believe we get outdoor baseball in less than three years!
Posted by: Peter at May 1, 2007 9:52 PM
Is the whole railroad thing also resolved?
Posted by: Peter at May 1, 2007 9:54 PM
The railroad thing is also resolved. See the article above. It is because the railroad situation was resolved today between the Twins and BNSF that the "quick take" action was put in motion.
Lane, if you REALLY want to talk backroom dealings on a sports facility, do some research on the new Padres stadium, PETCO Park.
I know it was just the Devil Rays, but apparently that WAS REALLY Sidney Ponson on the mound tonight!
Posted by: Derek at May 1, 2007 10:20 PM
If Shane gets deposed for anything it will be by Zygi W and the Vikes asking for tips on getting a new Vikings Stadium built.
Posted by: Freealonzo at May 2, 2007 7:36 AM
I declare that a quick take of a Chipotle burrito or a Fuddruckers cheeseburger is in order.
Shane, if you need a bodyguard while the press come and mob you, I got a dark suit with sunglasses that I can wear and look menacing while the interview is going on.
Posted by: Cheesehead Craig at May 2, 2007 8:41 AM
"especially with such a large vocal anti-stadium contingency & attorneys just itching for the fight."
Umm, isn't the fighting over? Wasn't the bill passed last year, signed by the Governor, and approved by the Hennepin County Commissioners? What vocal fight is this guy referring to? That ship has already sailed; get over it!
Curt in Grand Forks
Posted by: Curt Hanson at May 2, 2007 8:57 AM
Sr. Opat necesita ir! El tiene, solo handedly, el gobierno arruinado tomándolo en esta dirección para el único propósito de alimentar su ego. El es arrogante, la injusticia, y un mentiroso. Recuerda cuando él dijo, en la tele, ese Condado de Hennepin no podría negociar con LPII hasta que la legislación fuera pasada? Chistoso cómo que ha resultado ser una mentira, apenas como todo arrojó más de la boca. Qué podemos creer nosotros? Nada!
Posted by: Pare la Locura at May 2, 2007 9:05 AM
Thanks, that reminds me. Anyone see the weathergirl on Univision? I wish the english channels hired women that looked and dressed like that. Ella esta muy caliente!
Posted by: Cheesehead Craig at May 2, 2007 9:12 AM
As translated by freetranslation.com:
Mr. Opat needs to go! The it has, alone handedly, the government ruined taking it in this direction for the only purpose of feeding its ego. The is arrogant, the injustice, and a liar. It recalls when he said, in the television, that County of Hennepin would not be able to negotiate with LPII until the legislation was passed? That funny how has turned out to be a lie, barely as all threw more than the mouth. What can we believe we? Nothing!
Posted by: The Tube at May 2, 2007 9:15 AM
Mr. Opat needs to go! He has, single handedly, the ruined government taking it in this direction for the only intention to feed his ego. He is arrogant, the injustice, and a mentiroso. He remembers when he said, in tele, that County of Hennepin could not negotiate with LPII until the legislation she was last? Chistoso how that has turned out to be a lie, as soon as as everything threw more of the mouth. What can believe we? Nothing!
- Babel fish translation (not the website, i have a babel fish)
42 - Jackie Robinson, he knew the answer to everything
Posted by: CJ at May 2, 2007 9:53 AM
Hey Pare la Locura:
En las palabras clásicas de Boz Scaggs:
Por qué puede no usted acaba de obtener por su cabeza, está sobre, está sobre ahora
Posted by: Freealonzo at May 2, 2007 9:54 AM
¿No puedes ver a Sr. Opat para cuáles él es? Sr. Opat no ha sido veraz a ti a partir del día uno. 1.) el referéndum tomará demasiado largos. 2.) La tierra puede cambiar si el acuerdo no se puede alcanzar 3.) Sr. Opat no podría ejecutar el acuerdo de opción. ¿De dónde este hombre parará para obtener lo que él desea? ¿cuál es el exterior los límites para él? ¿cuántos más mentiras él han dicho? ¿cuál es verdad y cuál es la ficción? ¿Está esto el tipo de dirección que admiras?
Posted by: Pare la Locura at May 2, 2007 10:20 AM
Posted by: Erik at May 2, 2007 11:33 AM
Well if a babel fish is needed for this website, CJ better start breeding them. If not, anyone good at building them on spec?
Posted by: pragmatic_cynic at May 2, 2007 11:44 AM
By the way, "Pare la Locura" is STM. Just thought everyone should know.
Impressive Spanish abilities STM! I hope writing the comments out in another language is making you happier.
And Cheesehead Craig, that is a great idea. Let's plan on a Fuddruckers cheeseburger. I think Fuddruckers will give my press mob a little more comfort. (what an idiot!)
Posted by: Shane at May 2, 2007 11:46 AM
The ironic thing is that it makes no difference whether STM posts in English or Spanish. His words are equally influential to this primarily English speaking audience either way...
Posted by: tato at May 2, 2007 12:53 PM
STM to Shane: "I just can't quit you Greet Machine..."
Posted by: Freealonzo at May 2, 2007 1:39 PM
Ignorance is not merely the lack of knowledge, but the self-destructive turning away from truth in all areas of life. Persons develop a taste for ignorance, the predisposition to embrace erroneous beliefs based on presumption or mere authority. The ignorant person believes he knows what he actually doesn't know; he becomes delusional. He is deranged.
I find it difficult to understand how people today deliberately refuse to look at what is actually happening in the world, believing the lies and distortions their leaders tell them. With a straight face, political, economic, religious, and media figures tell the people that black is white, war is peace, lies are truths, joblessness is economic recovery, ignorance is intelligence.
To immature people, someone helping them to become aware of their own ignorance doesn't seem like help, but ridicule. Such assistance in recognizing their incorrect appraisal of themselves and the world seems to them a repudiation of their very selves and consequently terrible and unjustified.
Ignorance is not some harmless lack of the opportunity to gain information. It is, as Plato says, a fundamental corruption in which "all evils are rooted." In today's world, as has happened throughout man's past, we have the misfortune to see our culture being steadily destroyed by persons who are not only ignorant but whose ignorance has steadily corrupted them to the point of evil.
We can only hope that Minnesota will shake itself from its present stupor and stop the destruction of Constitutional liberties that is now running rampant. It may be that Minnesota and America will only wake up when the devastation of our nation and our world is so far advanced that it can no longer be ignored.
Good day and Good bye
Posted by: STM at May 2, 2007 2:02 PM
[slow, sarcastic clapping]
Posted by: Neil at May 2, 2007 2:58 PM
You know, STM is right. One day when I'm sitting outside watching the Twins on a gorgeous 75 degree June evening, sun just setting over the upper bowl of the Twins ballpark, hotdog in hand, peanut shells strewn about, family next to me cheering Joe Mauer's latest heroics, somehow it will feel all empty, pointless, yes even sad because deep down in my heart there will be that gnawing sense that my ridiculing STM's post on Greet Machine was actually a repudiation of my very self and that the ridicule directed toward STM was consequently terrible and unjustified…then I’ll buy another 16 oz Summit Pale Ale and the feeling will pass.
Posted by: Freealonzo at May 2, 2007 3:26 PM
Ding-dong the witch is dead.
Posted by: Aaron at May 2, 2007 3:28 PM
You're commenting on a blog, insulting people, regularly being censored by the blog author -- this is how you try to "help" us? And we're "immature" and "ignorant" for not agreeing with you on everything?
A suggestion: instead of being a 1984-style martyr right now, just engage in the discussion, my friend. Actually, a true 1984-style martyr would show a little patience. How long have you been posting here? I hold this blog in very high regard, but the problems you describe cannot be addressed in that short time frame by the Greet Machine readership alone!
Posted by: spycake at May 2, 2007 3:45 PM
FYI for any fellow U of M Alumni Association members out there, watch your email for a 20% discount on new orders for Men's Basketball season tickets.
Posted by: Snyder at May 2, 2007 5:36 PM
As with most of STM's legitimate messages, I start off being somewhat impressed by his breadth and knowledge of the subject, then slowly lose all respect for him when I find out he just copies everything:
If you're gonna cut and paste, link it. Otherwise you look like a chump.
Posted by: Drake33 at May 2, 2007 5:48 PM
Damn! Nice job on the investigative work Drake.
I thought the style of his last post was quite different than the rest of his writings.
Posted by: Cheesehead Craig at May 2, 2007 6:21 PM
And the score is--Stadium: 1, Democracy: 0.
Wednesday 02 May @ 13:38:33
by LYDIA HOWELL
With the inevitable cost overruns big projects always seem to have, and interest on a 30-year debt, the $522 million new Twins stadium will ultimately cost Hennepin County citizens $1 BILLION. But Minnesotans have already paid an even bigger price.
We the People were summarily dismissed by those who are elected to represent us. State law says citizens must weigh in on the ballot, and vote on any expenditure of more than $10 million on such a project. It’s called a referendum, and in public opinion polls right up to the end, more than 70 percent said they didn’t want public money going to Carl Pohlad’s stadium dreams. That’s been the public’s stand for a decade, so, every legislator who voted for this massive Corporate Welfare project can’t say they didn’t know.
They just didn’t give a damn.
This was a bipartisan insult to basic principles of democracy. In the Minnesota State Senate, Democrats topped Republicans voting for the stadium: Democrats–22, Republicans–12. In the Minnesota State House, it was neck and neck: Thirty-seven Republicans and 34 Democrats voted to ignore the will of the people.
And we can’t forget the Four Horsemen—as one legislator quipped. These are the four Hennepin County Commissioners who, about a month ago, approved a sales tax for Hennepin County citizens in order to build a new stadium. The four are: Commissioners Mike Opat, Peter McLaughlin, Randy Johnson and Mark Stenglein. To their credit, Commissioners Gail Dorfman, Penny Steele and Linda Koblick voted against the resolution.
The MEDIA is finally waking up from a long sleep while a single family in Minnesota rakes in a benefit worth hundreds of millions of dollars from taxpayers!
Posted by: lane at May 3, 2007 7:21 AM
Hey Lane, that's a commentary piece, not mainstream media. Where's the Boz Scaggs lyrics again?
Posted by: Aaron at May 3, 2007 7:38 AM
Lane, thank you so much for your comment. You mean Lydia Howell is on the case? Oh my goodness! Then all hope is lost for the Twins stadium! Let's see what juicy tidbits she has uncovered:
The stadium will cost $1 Billion!!! (yeah, we knew that)
There should have been a referendum!!! (yeah, it was called the November elections)
The vote in the legislature was bipartisan!!! (Lydia is on a role here, no one else has access to these damning numbers)
She actually lists the four Hennepin County Commissioners who voted in favor of the plan!!! (weren't they voted back into office, some in overwhelming fashion?)
But worst of all, she writes that Carl Pohlad will make money!!! Oh the humanity! When will this blight called "making money" stop! When?
It's a good thing that Lydia didn't uncover that every time I make a $20 purchase in Hennepin County, I will pay 3 cents to the stadium!
Wow! That is some top notch journalism there. Lydia Howell has really uncovered some important evidence. I'm sure Opat is worried ...
Posted by: Shane at May 3, 2007 7:57 AM
"by those who are elected to represent us"
Too bad we don't have any say in that, huh?
Posted by: Neil at May 3, 2007 8:39 AM
Ummm, who's Lydia and why the hell should I care?
Wait, just looked her up on-line... and I still don't know who she is and why the hell I should care about what she says.
She seems to be a self-important radio person on a channel very few listen to. Yep, MAJOR MEDIA SOURCE here. I'm so underwhelmed.
Posted by: Cheesehead Craig at May 3, 2007 8:47 AM
I think Rick says it well on his website.....
It's time to get started!
PS - I heard the Twins are projecting over 400,000 fans for the next home stand. All those fans would look pretty sweet in Summit Field. Go Twinkies!
Posted by: MOJO at May 3, 2007 8:55 AM
Cheesehead Craig nailed it.
Some folks around here have been lamenting that the Pulse of the Twin Cities newspaper is shutting down and I'm one of them, but the small silver lining is it's that much less paper and ink being wasted on silly drivel from folks like Lydia Howell.
Suffice it to say she gets a lot of stuff wrong, not just stadiums.
Posted by: Snyder at May 3, 2007 9:26 AM
MOJO - No way do the Twins get 400k on the next 9 game homestand. They would have to avg over 44k/game to make that happen. They currently are avg 26k/game. It's nice rhetoric, but I'd say they would get around 300k.
Posted by: Cheesehead Craig at May 3, 2007 10:38 AM
I guess I didn't do the math.....last night during the Twins/Rays game they were talking about how the Rays were only bringing in 7-8k per game during the Twins series and they mentioned the Twins were projecting over 400k for the next Twins homestand.
We will need to take it up with Dick and Bert....=)
Posted by: MOJO at May 3, 2007 11:31 AM
Off-topic, but too cool not to share.
Jiminstpaul should dig this...
A cleaner environment... through beer
Posted by: Snyder at May 3, 2007 1:08 PM
The anti-stadium banter continues to degenerate into pathetic, desperate psycho-babble. Please continue, it brings me joy and rapture.
Shane, unless I am totally blind, I am failing to find a way to email you. I just wanted to touch base and try to figure out a day this summer to pay my debt. Silly, silly hockey wager!!
Posted by: zooomx at May 3, 2007 3:06 PM
Lydia Howell was not factual on a couple other items:
Stadium will not cost $1B in today's dollars. People need to start realizing the time value of money. And, I will probably be a millionaire someday too...when it doesn't mean anything anymore.
Cost overruns will not be paid for by the public.
The law on $10M is for the city of Minneapolis, which is not paying for this project. The County is paying for it. The law required a referendum on the taxed body.
Municipalities ask for exceptions to this rule every year, and I would be interested to see how many of them pass without anyone noticing. Drake33, can you help me/us answer that???
Posted by: Derek at May 3, 2007 4:51 PM
How can (supposedly) grown men spend so much time and effort getting excited about a professional sports game?
You would think they all had better things to do; like get lives instead of watching men in tight clothes jog around a field for their benefit.
oooohhhh, I get it now. closet....
Posted by: lara at May 3, 2007 6:06 PM
i would think lara would have better things to do instead of reading other people chatting about sports if she disagreed with it so much. it just proves she is bored and doesn't have "better things to do."
Posted by: victor at May 3, 2007 10:20 PM
How can people who hate sports hang out at a website promoting a sport.
You would think they all had better things to do; like get lives instead of watching men and women type words.
oooohhhh, I get it now a closet 302.81.
Posted by: pragmatic_cynic at May 4, 2007 8:49 AM
Seems that some Great Machine readres missed the point; IT'S THE LAW that voters are to have a REFERENDUM on expenditures like the Twins stadium--but, money-bags trumped democracy.
Resorting to personal attacks just shows how slim an arguemnt one has.
As for the fact that I am nto part of so-called 'mainstream media'--which would more accurately be termed Corproate media, Great Machine readres might want to consider how they've been LIED INTO a war, had TAX BREAKS ON THE WEALTHIEST while their own property and income taxes go up, had so-called 'free trade' agreements OUTSOURCE THEDIR JOBS--keep an eye out for the North American Union--certain to send more of your jobs overseaas. And more--and all too little of it accurately reported to you by Corporate media.
But, why worry about the state of your democracy, when you've got --a little--Bread and --a LOT of --Circuses, like Pohlad's to keep you distracted.
Fct is, you got screwed and dont' even know it., THE TWINS COULD NTO LEAVE BECAUSE THEY HAD NO PLACE TO GO. Check out folks like sports writer JAY WEINER and TOM GOLDSTEIN--Elysian Fields. Or the book FIELD OF SCHEMES about how all these publically-subsidized stadiums DO NOT PROVIDE THE JOBS they promise--but, are one mroe example of CORPROATE WELFARE.
Finally, for those who want soem intelleignet discourse on sports, check out DAVE ZIRON's blog
Edge of Sports. One can actually be a sports fan with a brain.Imagine that.
Posted by: Lydia Howell at July 3, 2007 9:00 AM
I'm guessing since Lydia doesn't have a paying "journalism" gig anymore she relegated to googling her name and commenting on her own articles. Too bad she doesn't have her editor -- would help with the grammar/spelling errors.
What I don't get is how we ballpark supporters are screwed and don't even know it. I know I'm paying +/- $60 a year in sales tax in order to help build a ballpark that I want. I guess I'm not one of those baby boomers who think that everything should be done for their own benefit. I'm willing to make a small contribution to the cause.
As for jobs, it's my experience that no project, whether subsidized or not, delivers on the number of jobs promised. But ask the recent immigrants who will work serving food and cleaning up the ballpark after an event if the the job they have is worth it. Or ask the union electrician, pipefitter, or construction worker who will be working on this project for 2.5 years if the project is worth it.
For all her sympathy for the "little people" my guess is that Lydia rarely rubs shoulders with those who will actually work at the ballpark as she is shopping for just the right brand of organic goat cheese at Whole Foods Market.
Posted by: Freealonzo at July 3, 2007 9:43 AM
(In a hushed whispered tone)
It's also in the law that the referendum does not have to happen given certain criteria are met.
Can't just cut and paste the parts you like. Gotta go with the whole thing.
Posted by: Cheesehead Craig at July 3, 2007 9:52 AM
Your comments about Miller Park are terrible. You talk about people not want to pay for Miller Park any more. You want one county to pay for a new one billion statium. Then talk about Miller Park itself, when you watch vikings and twins inside an ugly box, you call the metrodome. You cant see any birds in there. Its only 25 years old. Its one boring stadium to be in.
Posted by: Michael Koltz at February 6, 2008 6:50 PM
You cant see any birds in there.
If there is a better argument against the Dome, I have yet to hear it.
Posted by: spycake at February 6, 2008 9:08 PM