< Stadium blue prints | Main | Moving in the right direction >
August 20, 2007
Rumor: TRUE!
I've been notified by a longtime reader that the value is:
$23.8M
Not too shabby, if true. I've got a meeting. More thoughts later.
Update: Well, by now you've all figured out that the rumor is true. HA! So, in celebration of the ruling (which will seemingly allow some decent infrastructure to be built) I've decided to take my two boys to the Twins game tonight. In other words, my thoughts on this subject will have to wait. Until we meet again!
Posted by snackeru at August 20, 2007 10:27 AM
Comments
If true, that is a HUGE victory for HC. I was predicting 5-7 Million higher (which I STILL woulda thought was an HC victory).
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 10:40 AM
Yup. Reported on Twincities.com now.
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 10:41 AM
How can being off by 60% be considered a "HUGE" victory?
I hope HC had a 10% fudge factor in their infrastructure budget (or more, as this will most likely be appealed). This award being 10 mill higher, plus another 1-2 mill for legal?
Posted by: curious at August 20, 2007 10:47 AM
Because we have an adversarial legal system MORON.
What do you think, Hines won? They were off by nearly 300%.
Hines didn't even get the $25 million that they based the option they gave LPII.
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 10:52 AM
It AIN'T over till the appeals are over.
There will be another million or two in legal bills just for the appeal and jury trial and if there are a couple of the wrong people on the jury look out Hennepin County because the check book will be in the red.
Posted by: not over at August 20, 2007 10:53 AM
^keep dreaming.
An appeal is last ditch hail mary. Even if the appeal 'succeeds', with a precedent already set, the upwards bump would be unlikely to get to $30 million.
Folks generally don't like to overrule other folks. It allows them to avoid responsibility.
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 10:59 AM
of course they'll appeal, that's how these arrogant, entitled people operate. looks like the 37-57 mil. musings were laughable as predicted.
Posted by: mullen at August 20, 2007 11:07 AM
Here's the Strib article:
http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1372478.html
Looks like one of the panel members disagreed but didn't say whether or not he thought the number should be higher or lower....
It's been a while since I was in land condemnations but I think the burdon of proof falls heavily on the party who appeals the panel. They will have to demonstrate that the panel made an egregious error in determining the value. It would be doubtful that a judge would find that the panel made an error of such magnitude to bring the value up to $65 million.
Shane it would be interesting to hear from a legal eagle who appeals work, what is the likelihood of a change in the value or the magnitude of that change and where the burdon of proof lies.
Posted by: Freealonzo at August 20, 2007 11:08 AM
I have a feeling that "curious" and "not over" is STM. It's funny how STM and other stadium opponents start backing the land owners, and I'm sure we'll see more comments throughout the day expressing frustration with the value of the land.
Posted by: Aaron at August 20, 2007 11:12 AM
I'm not backing the land owners. It's equally "interesting" that because the value didn't come in closer to $65 million (a number we didn't find out about until AFTER condemnation proceedings) you perceive this as a victory for HC.
What happend to good old fashioned "straight up" dealings by our politicians? what was the real acceptable number to Oputz? All the media posturing he did in the weeks leading up to condemnation and the "holier than thou" attitude he took as well as his stated "confidence in his appraisal" only seem to be off by almost double?
I wouldn't break my arm patting myself on my back if I were him. The winners, I think, are LPII! evidently they had the right number all along and were forced to partner up with Hines to defend it. Had Oputz offered 23 something million as originally discussed and signed in '05, a couple of million in legal fees could've been saved.
Posted by: backinglandowners? at August 20, 2007 11:23 AM
If this goes to a jury trial, I wonder who would be on the jury. It can't be Hennepin County residents, can it? They have a vested interest in keeping the amount down.
If it stays at $23.8M, the entire situation is a win for everyone but Hines. LPII got $1.2M more than they sold it for to Hines. Hennepin County proved that this land was worth about what they thought it was. (They knew it would be in the mid-20's because their original price was $12M plus five adjacent acres. The $13M number was a low ball, just like $65M was a high ball.) And, this is a win for residents of the County regardless if you support the ballpark or not; The infrastructure around the ballpark will much more friendly than if the price had been higher.
Posted by: Derek at August 20, 2007 11:27 AM
I must say--STM does a pretty good job of disguising himself with his post signatures. Why not sign as STM? I'm personally looking forward to Shane's topic on this subject.
Posted by: Aaron at August 20, 2007 11:28 AM
LPII publicly stated that they would've signed had the offer from Oputz came anywhere close to the value of the '05 offer. LPII didn't partner up with Hines until March, when it became clear that Oputz wasn't just lowballing, he was trying to steal the land!
The ONLY reason HC residents are incurring the cost of this condemnation is because Oputz is a crook!
Posted by: bonehead at August 20, 2007 11:45 AM
While LPII seems to have been 'close' to the right number, they won't be too thrilled. Remember, they surrendered some value in order to get the lottery ticket option from Hines if the value was more than $25 million. They could have likely gotten a couple million more if they told Hines to stick it and told the county they wanted $25-$27. County goes to Twins, Twins help w/ $10 Million, we save 3 months of construction and LPII gets their money 9 months earlier. (The time value of this money ain't trivial - they probably have a hurdle rate of around 15% for investments so 9 months is worth like $2.5 million itself)
Instead they rolled the dice and said nothing.
My guess is their reaction is likely an "oh well." They got fairly close to what they wanted, and still hold that now even more unlikely lottery ticket.
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 11:45 AM
Actually; keeping their money out of the market for the past few months probably saved them 15%!
Posted by: ROI at August 20, 2007 11:59 AM
Thanks for 'bonehead' comment STM, but did Opat do something to you personally? I can understand some one being upset with a politician, but you seem to have something more going on.
Anyway, as usual you are so jaded by your hatred for Opat that it clouds your judgment on the whole process. Make a sound post and I will respond, continue making outlandish, ridiculous, insulting statements, and you will continue to be ignored. Do a little homework and come back with something of substance.
Posted by: Derek at August 20, 2007 12:00 PM
Why don't you elaborate by giving us your take "on the whole process" Derek? show me where I'm wrong.
Posted by: enlightenus at August 20, 2007 12:16 PM
"LPII publicly stated that they would've signed had the offer from Oputz came anywhere close to the value of the '05 offer. "
STM, or whoever the heck you are. You show your lack of understanding with this statement.
I'll give it to you REAL SIMPLE: Follow the money.
At one time the sentence above may have been true. But sometime last winter along came Hines from Houston (or wherever the hell they're from). They meet with LPI and say, "Hi. We know you think that land is worth around $25M, but we've got a lot of experience in land condemnation and think that it's possible you could get a lot more. To show you we're good for it, we'll buy your land for $21 (or $23 or what ever it was) and let you participate in any amount over $25 that we get!"
The second LPII gets their grubby mitts on that option, they clam up. Get it? If they go on record in March saying that they want $25 Million, the option is WORTHLESS. So they say NOTHING.
Which is why they wanted condemnation all along. Remember all that "Condemn it and let the court decide" talk?
Well they got it, and it didn't pay off. Too bad for them.
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 12:21 PM
Your selective memory is failing you. The Hines/LPII "partnership" didn't form until well after January.
Bottom line; the opening offer from Oputz is what put this into a tail spin. To use the analogy most used on this site; If you felt your house was worth 250,000 and somebody offered 130,000; I don't think there would've been too much "negotiation" at that point. Had Oputz come close to what was agreed to in 2005, this would be done by now.
Posted by: false at August 20, 2007 12:25 PM
So what if the partnership didn't form until January?
You think Hines cold called LPII one chilly January morning and they had the partnership signed, sealed and delivered by lunch the same day? They'd probably started negotiating weeks or months prior.
Who knows? For all we know Hines coulda seen this opportunity the moment the stadium legislation passed!
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 12:29 PM
The more likely scenario is; LPII, being the "mom and pop" real estate speculation company didn't have the cash or the expertise to hire the battalion of lawyers needed to defend its value in court, so it solicited a deal with Hines whereby Hines could benefit.
Condemnation absolutely paid off for LPII as the alternative would've been to try and negotiate for 60% more than the opening offer from HC! LPII won big, Hines isn't out anything since the we (HC) pay for the attorney fees and whatever other bogus costs Hines will use to "gross up" their expenses on this deal.
Posted by: likelyscenario at August 20, 2007 12:34 PM
^err, isn't that basically exactly the scenario I described except that LPII calls Hines instead of vice versa? Alright, sure... LPII might have initiated it, big deal?
The point is, once LPII transferred the risk to Hines, they had no incentive to deal, and a big incentive to be difficult, despite your protestations.
LPII did OK. Not great, not horrible.
Hines is most definitely pissed. They didn't want to tie up 20 odd million dollars for nearly a year to see a 0% return (and likely, a loss).
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 12:41 PM
20 mill to Hines is like 10 bucks to us. Plus, they have the battalion of lawyers on retainer for issues like this plus, they got to use the litigation to "glad hand" and "back slap" for their own "north loop village" plans; and they won't lose anything. It aint over yet.
How can it not be great for LPII? didn't they get what they only wanted in the first place? I doubt Oputz would've gotten to 23 million after starting at 13.75 and it didn't cost LPII anything but time (and like I said, that time out of the stock market probably saved them a bunch!)
Posted by: really at August 20, 2007 12:47 PM
STM,
I have given my take here many times, and it has been well proven that I know what I am talking about. And, I have defended you many times at this site because every once in a while you present a well-thought-out, pragmatic opinion that shows a decent level of intelligence.
Where I have a problem with you is when you seem to take on an immature attitude and can't seem to argue objectively or with any level of civility. You obviously feel like Opat is to blame for everything that is going wrong in your life, and you have been trying to drive that point home for a long time. All I am asking is that you try to act like an adult, even 50% of the time.
Posted by: Derek at August 20, 2007 12:57 PM
I have given my take here many times, and it has been well proven that I know what I am talking about.
I need a refresher because I don't recall your "take" let alone it being right. If its a "pro" Oputz take, then you've got a lot of splaining to do!
All I'm doing to providing the appropriate amount of balance to those with rose colored glasses that ignore everything Oputz did wrong only to credit him for accomplishing only what they wanted, at ANY cost!
The truth is;
He's responsible for imposing an unpopular tax (good for you, bad for everybody else) to build a stadium (good for Pohlad, good for you, majority don't care)and in the process costing HC residents approximately millions more (bad for everybody) by failing to negotiate in good faith and causing the land acquisition to slip into condemnation proceedings.
Now if you're willing to ignore anything and everything wrong with this process simply because it results in you getting a stadium and only costing you 30 to 50 bucks a year? well, then you're more selfish than I originally gave you credit for.
Posted by: STM at August 20, 2007 01:06 PM
Tato and Derek, unfortunately you are giving STM and his various personalities exactly what he wants: a forum to needle and taunt those who don't think like him.
Simply don't engage him. He might not go away, but we won't have to try to change his mind. Just bask in the knowledge that we are getting a new ballpark, cost overruns are covered by the Twins, and that there's no land cost windmills for other STM's to tilt at.
Posted by: Freealonzo at August 20, 2007 01:11 PM
STM, if you honestly think this is great for LPII, I'm guessing you wouldn't mind loaning me $3-5 Million bucks interest free for the next year? I'll even put it in T-bills to ensure that you won't have to worry about getting your principle back.
They paid a price for going the distance. Whether or not they think it was worth it is a question only they can answer...
Posted by: tato at August 20, 2007 01:13 PM
In other words, Free; "more me now."
Posted by: STM at August 20, 2007 01:16 PM
ah, the money earns interest.
Posted by: Tatosadoughhead at August 20, 2007 01:17 PM
Point taken Free.
I'm just eating lunch at my desk getting a big kick thinking of STM yanking his hair out over this stadium thing, and I can't help poking a stick in his cage. It makes me grin.
Lot better than reading the daily "Update: World still Screwed" headline on CNN.com
...done for now.
Posted by: Tato at August 20, 2007 01:19 PM
Forget T-bills, STM lost sight of his "principle" long ago.
Posted by: realist at August 20, 2007 01:20 PM
pull out hair? all these people are baldies. pogin, brucie, they'd need hair to begin with. nice to see the opat mancrush still exists for mr multiple poster/id through good times and bad. maybe it's aron kahn? hahahaha
Posted by: mullen at August 20, 2007 01:50 PM
Easy Timmy!
Posted by: Timsastar at August 20, 2007 02:00 PM
i have to say, all things considered... a good price, not as bad as feared, that's for sure. I like that it's below the $25m collusion price these jokers fixated on.
as for the leagalese... appeals are heard by judges... judges who don't like to mess with stare decisis, this is pretty much done, sans a little around the edges perhaps.
time to move along and start driving piles!
Posted by: CJ at August 20, 2007 02:57 PM
They paid a price for going the distance. Whether or not they think it was worth it is a question only they can answer...
Wouldn't that price be: getting more than 9 million dollars more than what Opat offered in the first place?
Posted by: DD at August 20, 2007 03:00 PM
STM, for as often as you visit the site, and as often as we have discussed the finer points of ballpark legislation, sports business, and economics, you are obviously joking if you don’t remember any of the discussions we have had.
All I'm doing to providing the appropriate amount of balance to those with rose colored glasses that ignore everything Oputz did wrong only to credit him for accomplishing only what they wanted, at ANY cost!
And this is why I have defended you so many times in the past. You have often done a nice job of playing devil’s advocate, but when you act like a 5-year-old, I am darn sure going to call you on it.
The truth is;
He's responsible for imposing an unpopular tax (good for you, bad for everybody else) to build a stadium (good for Pohlad, good for you, majority don't care)and in the process costing HC residents approximately millions more (bad for everybody) by failing to negotiate in good faith and causing the land acquisition to slip into condemnation proceedings.
Now if you're willing to ignore anything and everything wrong with this process simply because it results in you getting a stadium and only costing you 30 to 50 bucks a year? well, then you're more selfish than I originally gave you credit for.
He is indeed the person that I would give much of the responsibility for the ballpark. And yes, it does appear that more are against it than for it, although if it came down to a vote, it would probably be in the 58 to 42 range like it did in St. Paul a few years ago. The failing to negotiate in good faith was on both sides of the issue, and condemnation proceedings happen quite frequently in stadium land acquisition. Both sides are to blame that the process got this far.
I am not ignoring anything and everything wrong with the process. But, the truth is, those people we elected agreed that it was a good idea, and more people that voted against it were removed from office than vice versa, so obviously you are one of the few that is really upset about this. The land deal ended up being a mess, to be sure, but in the end, this is going to be a fair price, which is what both sides wanted.
Posted by: Derek at August 20, 2007 03:03 PM
Yes Shane, I meant what I said on the last posting...I'm sick of you letting this troll control the discussion of YOUR blog. He offers NOTHING new and repeats the same bull$hit over and over and then starts with personal attacks. Therefore, I'm giving him a taste of his own meds. Your act is old STM, find some new material or go park your car on the Cayuga bridge and wait...I hear it's the next one likely to collapse due to the conservative ideology that you and your fellow neo-cons hold and have tainted the political climate of the Twin Cities with for the past 10-15 years.
If you don't like what your government is doing STM, MOVE!
Posted by: kevin in az at August 20, 2007 03:53 PM
Shane knows when it's me or not and often calls me on it. You and your guesses are more wrong than right, including this time.
Posted by: STM at August 20, 2007 04:48 PM
You're wrong Derek. The last thing Oputz wanted was a fair price. He could've had that by just sticking to what was agreed upon in 2005. He thought he could "negotiate" a better deal and he's the one with egg on his face for trying to screw LPII out of 10 million dollars.'
He lost (this effort) and we lost (millions because of it). And as long as he's allowed to continue his bully tactics, we'll continue to lose.
Posted by: Derekiswrong at August 20, 2007 04:54 PM
Oputz! HAHAHA, it just never gets old! I come back to this site after a couple months and the same idiot is allowed to hijack the blog. After all this time and still clinging to your last threads of obsession. What a punster you are. Oh yes, he's very much the bully! Pawlenty's a bully, half the legislature are bullies! The world's against you loser! See 'ya at the groundbreaking! You're a one-trick pony, troll, you're really in need of a life, and I mean that as a concerned citizen.
Posted by: mullen at August 20, 2007 05:57 PM
Don't let anybody tell you the grass is green, Timmy. Stick to what you know.
Posted by: obviousloser at August 20, 2007 08:01 PM
Drugs, dog fights, drugs, rapes, drugs, assaults, drugs, gun crimes, drugs, tax cheating, drugs.
Yes, these professional sports players are SUCH a good influence on the young of America. Can anyone name a single professional sports player that is a positive influence???
I thought not. Enjoy your (rigged) games.
Posted by: ken at August 20, 2007 08:33 PM
Cal Ripken.
Posted by: Jeff T. at August 20, 2007 09:28 PM
Brett Favre.
He never did drugs. That whole Vicodin thing, it was a dream, like that Dallas season. LOL!
Glad this is finally over. Now the blog can start prepping for what's important: the state fair trip and mulitple pictures of bunnies and chickens, Shane's favorite animals. Time for a pork chop on a stick! Now that is something all of us can agree is something wonderful. Except the Muslims who read the site, obviously.
Posted by: Cheesehead Craig at August 20, 2007 10:15 PM
